Category: EVs

Great to chat with Cailey Patterson, Executive Director at Saints Performance Automotive Design, the University of St Andrews Formula Student E team! They are designing and building a performance electric car! We discussed the competition, the future of electric vehicles in competition, how to start a cleantech project and more!

https://carbotnic.com/spad

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James

The unedited podcast transcript is below

James McWalter

Hello today we’re speaking with Cailey Patterson executive director at Saints Performance Automotive Design or SPAD, welcome to the podcast Cailey.

Cailey Patterson

Thank you so much for having me very excited to be here.

James McWalter

Fantastic to start? could you tell us a little bit about SPAD.

Cailey Patterson

Yes, so we compete in the formula student competition. Um, it’s a global engineering competition held at silverstone every year um and we compete in both you know business side of the competition and in the engineering. Um, and yeah, we’ve kind of started this society. Um, it was started by a group of 6 students who felt that their technical knowledge didn’t have an opportunity to be exercise in a more practical manner. Um, particularly in one like mechanical engineering. Um so spad was founded um to fill that gap and we’ve kind of grown the past year ah to team of around maybe 50 students. Um, so it’s been very exciting.

James McWalter

Those original 6 students before you know the massive growth and I guess to start could we talk a little bit about the um, the program you know, not everybody listening will understand silverstone understand formula one and so on. So yeah, we’d love to hear a little bit more context about the you know the opportunity that already existed. And then why that kind of original group of 6 students started in the space and.

Cailey Patterson

It’s a formula student. Um, in particular, it’s run by the institute of mechanical engineering. Um and it was backed by Ross Braun um his big name and Mercedes formula one racing and. It was kind of you know this student competition that was supposed to naturally feed into the formula motorsport world. Um, and traditionally it’s an engineering design competition. But we’ve kind of entered into this field. Without an engineering department. Um, so from our perspective. Um, we’ve really learned that there’s so much more to this competition than engineering. Um. I mean when we started we had absolutely nothing. No garage space. No funding from the university um, no tools. Not a lot of knowledge. Um, necessarily. But yeah, it’s taking the initiative and um.

So Formula student ah was created by the institute of mechanical engineering ah to give University students the chance to compete In. You know the motorsport universe. Um, within their curriculum. Um, and I think with our team in particular, we sort of you know we don’t have an engineering department So We’ve taken that and have you gained a much more.

Cailey Patterson

Okay, um, so how we approach the competition is yeah, it’s a lot more than just engineering it requires marketing. Um. Sponsorship we’re fundraising everything ourselves. Um you we’re one of the only teams that doesn’t receive funding from their university. Ah so there are a lot of challenges built into it for us specifically um that we’ve taken more of a business or approach to it and.

James McWalter

Like yeah and let’s talk a little bit about St Andrews itself. So you know the name of spad. It’s a saints right? and that comes from the fact that University you’re talking about St Andrews and I was particularly interested in this because I.

Cailey Patterson

Good.

James McWalter

Disscent Andrews and for the Kar audience St Andrews is you know I think it’s the third oldest english speaking university in the world. It’s kind of nestled in this very very quaint fit village the village of town of St Andrews in Scotland but yeah, we’d love to hear a little bit of context about St Andrews and you know you you mentioned it didn’t have. A suitable department and so you’re trying to um, bring to bear the tools and the resources you do have to bear. So yeah, so we’d love to hear a little bit about you know your experience at 10 enders as you’re trying to you know, bring spad to the next level. So.

Cailey Patterson

Yeah, So our team in particular. Um we have a lot of physics students students in chemistry maths Computer Science Sustainable development I’m an international relations and econ major. Um, we have some students in philosophy and geography and we’ve all sort of come together and the initial you know reason for starting spd um was to establish you know some kind of engineering community here. Um, but we’ve all. Kind of come together to take this interdisciplinary approach to the competition. Um, because I think innovation is driven by you know, a different interdisciplinary approach and.

Cailey Patterson

Technology in particular advances relative to its capacity to differentiate. So I think with St Andrews being such a diverse community. Um yeah I think that we can produce something very interesting.

James McWalter

Um, and formula student itself as you said it’s a competition. How do you win.

Cailey Patterson

Well so breaking down their static events and dynamic events. The static events are the more business related events. There’s a lap time simulation a business plan presentation cost report. And an engineering design event and then on the dynamic side you have 5 different engineering events on track so we have like a skid pad acceleration autocross endurance which is 26 labs and there’s also an efficiency score. So with that. Um, you need to perform well in both categories so to win per se um, our approach is to make it in the endurance lap because that’s the one that generates the most points. Um, and it’s also the one that not a lot of teams finish. So our goal is to try to finish that and event in particular.

James McWalter

So you mentioned these different types of ways to win and you said that you’re having a particular focus on the endurance part of the competition and why is that the most interesting and is there particular advantages that working with an electric vehicle has for that particular event.

Cailey Patterson

Ah, well actually I think that’s the worst event to compete in with an electric vehicle. We’re having some and real issues with cooling Ah, in particular, we’re not allowed to use water cooled.

Cailey Patterson

Methods It’s you know, usually the safe bet is to use an air cold system. Um, so we spend a lot of our design focus in that regard on a those systems. So yeah.

James McWalter

Um, Okay so that that’s fascinating. Um, but I guess as you’re thinking through the different ways that you could you know win certain parts of the composition versus others. How much does the. Yeah, and the nature of an electric vehicle come into play.

Cailey Patterson

I Will I think our decision. Um, you know obviously the easy choice would be to build an internal combustion Engine vehicle. Um, especially with our experience. It’s just the easiest you know way to actually. Compete with the car wrong track. But what we had to think about especially the start of last year was you know a lot of students on the team are going to Graduate. We Want this society to continue long after that. Um so thinking in terms of Sustainability. Where’s the competition going to Move. Where’s the industry going to move the choice had to be E B Um, and it also fits with.

02:22.74

Cailey Patterson

And our University values of Sustainability. Um our own personal values even and you know making an impact in that industry now even at a formula student level. And something that we were particularly interested in being a part of.

James McWalter

And so do you think that formula students will eventually even mandate electric vehicles down the road.

Cailey Patterson

I think so I think it’s going to be sooner and than we anticipate. Um I mean just the movement from you know last year to now I think majority of the grid is going to be ev. Um, and I think there might be 1 or 2 ice vehicles still left um and usually ice is a good backup if something happens with the power train just throw an engine in the back that we can still compete. Um, but I think everyone’s going to be. Going for Ev this year

James McWalter

And thinking about yeah the environment of St Andrews itself and again for the audience. It’s incredibly quaint, but it’s also surrounded by rural roads. Um. Yeah, very quiet here as often common to see a tractor as you are to see cars or on some of the roads near and Andrews. Um, when test driving and so on how does all that work. Well.

Cailey Patterson

So we’re actually going to go to an airfield um, there’s one in England that we think we can get on but we’re essentially going to set up the formula student track. Very much an abridged version of the track at Silverstone. It’s only on one section of it so we’re going to replicate that track at this airfield and test the car there because obviously there’s not. Really anywhere in st andrews we can test it besides the beach maybe but I’m feeling our engineering team won’t like that. No yeah.

James McWalter

It It be her to get it up off it. Um up to up some those steps and so on Um, and so even it loves to kind of dive in. So Even when you’re trying to figure out all right. We need a test place where you know you’re kind of more focused on the operation side. What that goes into actually just finding a place right? What are is the work. What are the you know the skills that you have to kind of leverage. Um, because I think for a lot of projects like this. They kind of seem you know, kind of very well- established or you know like these oh this. Yeah this this team they’re building this electric electric formula one car Like. Um, they must have all the support. It must have things already set up for them. Um, but as we both know you know there’s a ton of just like kind of the small little nudges you have to do every day to get products like this off the Ground. So even just in the case of finding that Airfield what are the things that your team had to do to get that you know to make that real right.

Cailey Patterson

I Mean everything Really we’ve had to be really scrappy. Um, you know, just picking up the phone calling as many people as we can, um even per things like our garage Space. We couldn’t find 1 in St Andrews Um, then you also have to think about things like insurance Coverage. Ah because we don’t We don’t operate under this framework that an engineering department normally provides to University Students. Ah. We don’t necessarily have the £15000000 insurance that formula student would like us to have um I think our University covers 5000000 which is you know, reasonable for us considering we’re not using any University buildings or.

Cailey Patterson

You know everything’s outsourced. Um, and we’ve also partnered with a metal fabrication company and Dundee. Um, we’re using a space in their garage. Um up until the chassis and suspension and all of that’s done and then. We’re going to have to find a place to keep it while we work on the power train. So a lot of different moving pieces. We kind of learn as we go and try to plan ahead as best we can.

James McWalter

And in terms of the university itself it it sounds like you know it’s definitely not this incredibly you know official stamp of approval type project. Um, but you know you’re you’re obviously working with aspects of the university. Everyone involved is a a member of. Yeah, a university club or society how exactly is the interaction with the university um, and where could you know? Ideally, if anybody e and Andrews is listening to this. Um, if they could give support were the areas that you’d love to receive more support for this project and.

Cailey Patterson

We received a lot of help from the alumni and development department. The student union kind of operates as our safety and risk mediator just to you know, ensure that everything is. Being taken care of properly in that respect but we would really love the support of the eden campus was just built. They have a battery lab that’ll be should be done by the end of the year and that’s something that we would really like to incorporate into our project. Um set space is designed for you know, entrepreneurial um maker space. You know that’s it’s that type of environment and we think our project perfectly fits within. The bounds of that purpose.

James McWalter

And how do you and the other members of the team. You know balance The you know the work you’re doing with spad and then your studies and like other commitments.

Cailey Patterson

Ah, so within the whole team. You know people take on different roles. So you know if you’re kind of just a general member. You know few hours a week here and there but I would say. Our central committee which is around 15 students. It’s all consuming. Um, and yeah I wake up in the morning I do my spat emails I set up meetings later in the day I do my Linkedin and then school kind of fits in between there and I know. Especially a lot of the calmsi physics math students. It’s you know time blocking and trying to have the best of both worlds and commit as much as you can to the project.

James McWalter

Um, and how I guess like thinking through the motivations of the team and I’m sure everyone’s motivations for being involved in something like this can vary. Um, what are typically some of the main reasons why people want to get involved.

Cailey Patterson

Um, I think a lot of people are sort of attracted to spad because they’re motor sport enthusiasts and then we we’ve had a lot of interest. There’s actually a growing.

Cailey Patterson

Community of people who are interested in engineering um around town we got invited to a community page on teams earlier this year so there’s definitely you know this need to actually. Work on something and I know um I talked to a few students who told me in high school. They used to have a mate like a little maker space at at their school and they should really love just building something and they come to spat even if they’re not interested in. Formula murder sport or mechanical engineering just to have that practical experience and learn how to Cad and fabricate and three d print and all of that.

James McWalter

That super cool. Um, and I guess you know thinking for for yourself, right? You know your international relations major something that’s quite removed I guess from ah you know like 3 d printing and motive for sports and so on. Um, I guess what? what are the kind of motivations and inspiration for why you’re involved in the project yourself. So.

Cailey Patterson

So I joined the team a few months after it started. Um I’m a big formula fan formula e and formula one and I saw an email that they started spd and I joined the team and. Once you you know become a part of it. You realize how how much there is to learn from it I mean from you know in terms of my career path. You know the sponsorship they’re reaching out to people. Emails Linkedin messages coming up with a strategy. Um, you know that’s based on this whole sales pipeline has been super beneficial and just the networking I mean I’ve probably reached out to 7000 people over the course of my time. And bad and you know I’ve met a lot of great alumni and people in different industries and I think that those relationships have been really good to have.

James McWalter

Yeah, you know one of them was me right? and that’s that’s how we we ended up chatting today. Um, actually I think it’s it’s such a kind of powerful message. You know a lot of time we talk on on the podcast to folks who are you know founders of different types of climate tech companies. But the motion for them to get.

James McWalter

Something from an idea to being a startup tackling a problem is pretty much identical to what you’re describing. You know you’re trying to build a team. You’re up against the odds. Um,, there’s some sort of Problem. You’re trying to solve right? You know in this case. Ah you know there’s a particular set of Criteria to win a competition. Um. So There’s like it’s a very kind oflivity defined problem. But how you get there is completely up to the efforts and and the skillets of the team you can build and that scrappiiness that you mentioned that’s all the better right? It’s a very similar to a startup team or a team trying to build an early stage prototype to solve a problem you have to like.

James McWalter

Pull every lever you have available to you. Ah and the idea of reaching out to 7000 people I think that’s probably intimidating to a lot of the folks not just students but people who are thinking about starting their own companies but those are the numbers you need to do um like I tell people that to get to the point where my own startup I was reaching out to a couple hundred people a week for Years um and you know I was ideating I was trying to understand different aspects of the different problem space I was in and it’s just necessary and as you kind of move through that you do start to kind of find specific ah points where it’s like okay. This is the type of knowledge base or person or whatever it may be that is the higher leverage way to move my project forward move my company forward. Whatever it may be um and so you you kind of mentioned you know thinking through careers and so on one of the things I think um. So some of the students you mentioned did philosophy that was my background it did masters in in Scotland in St Andrews and was actually going into a ph d program there before I ended up going and not staying in academia but moving into the you private industry. And 1 of the reasons I moved into private industry was it was very hard for me to see the real world effect of staying in academia um, I wanted to see the translation into some sort of real world impact and you know I think that is often something that a lot of students. Um.

James McWalter

And so and so you know students obviously can have a lot of different opportunities to try to figure out ways to better better leverage their experience in university to have the type of impact they want to have on the world after university um. But I think one of the things or critiques I have of the university system is often. It doesn’t give people the um, you know the opportunities to actually get exposed to like real-world type problems in a way that actually would maybe increase their learning and so you know for me everything that I look at is like oh through the prism startups um so it’s like oh yeah pretty much everyone going through university should at least have the opportunity even if they don’t want to actually do it. They don’t have to do it but should have the opportunity to be supported to try to start a company um because I think you just learn so much through the process of trying to solve a problem. Um, in that way. But I think projects like um like so spad also has this massive impact and so I guess at a high level Kali how could universities better encourage projects like spd from happening because it’s had such a massively positive effect on you and your team.

Cailey Patterson

You know honestly I think having the amount of autonomy that we do have from the university has allowed us to really shape this into what we want it to be ah, you know we’re not. Working within a certain curriculum or within a certain department so we have the flexibility to pretty much run the team. However, we want um, there’s really no oversight um on how we operate. Aside from risk and safety and I think that universities I know I’ve heard from you know, various different societies that you know when they try to go through the university particularly the students association like. In terms of what they’re allowed to do um, kind of gets limited I know there is a big debate over the use of power tools within societies all over St Andrew’s mermaids.

Cailey Patterson

They use power tools to create their set and the University kind of outlawed them.. There’s been this whole rise for the power tools initiative that started but I think overall universities can just create. Space for students to pursue their interest and make sure that that space is well equipped with whatever they might need and I think from that Ah, you’d be surprised what students can come up with.

James McWalter

Yeah, that power tools example is kind of remarkable. So what is the the rationale for banning Para toolsols from students.

Cailey Patterson

It’s a risk and safety concern I.

James McWalter

That’s that’s absolutely fascinating. Um I mean I could imagine there are you know? Maybe you don’t want to have like ah like an open ended pansaw or something but ah, you know surely that is that is remarkable.

Cailey Patterson

Is yeah, it’s been. You know? Um, we’ve actually started us in a few of the drama societies who need it for to build their sets and you know there’s 1 team who. Uses them occasionally for something and robotics. Um, we fall started this coalition to use our you know a little power tools.

James McWalter

Yeah, yeah, um, and again any st andrew administrators listening to this like cop on that is absolutely ridiculous. Um, yeah, like using these of power tools which have been around I don’t know hundred years um you know obviously you can mandate specific types of power tools.

Cailey Patterson

Um, yeah.

James McWalter

More than others but the idea of like not using them when people are truly clearly trying to have like these ways of building and and literally trying to build with you know hands side Underback is is wild and um, yeah I I’m sorry to hear that that’s that’s a classic example of like safety or you know safety of a wall else and.

Cailey Patterson

Is that.

James McWalter

It’s a nature of risk that actually allows folks to grow anywheres and so removing all risk I think removes all growth and this is just like such a kind of weird and silly example of that you know.

Cailey Patterson

Yeah I know especially um I mean we’ve submitted risk Assessments. You know it’s taken consideration and the high voltage low voltage systems that we’re using and. Some of those risks are death and electrocution and we’ve submitted those but something about the power tools.

James McWalter

Yeah, you’ve actually convinced me yes, having the ya university much more involved if that is the kind of level of involvement um might not be the kind of net good that it might look at first glance that it is better to have um that independence so that you can experiment um, because otherwise you know.

.

James McWalter

Things like this would potentially ground to a halt. Um, and I guess you know I think one of the really interesting things when I was asking you a little bit about the motivation of yourself and the rest of the team is that the climate element or the kind of need to work on electric cars from just that climate piece wasn’t like. 1 of the first things and what I think is kind of interesting about that is and correct me I wrong. There’s basically a supposition that that’s just the water we’re we’re going to have to swim in anyways and that you know the I’m interested. You know one one could be interested in a certain type of form a 1 racing. And oh yeah, of course that’ll be electric right? Just that’s that’s the kind of drive train of the future. It’s just kind of contained whereas I think ten years ago it’s it’d be like oh my god you know how can we force this cleaner alternative into the status quo but it sounds like The actual excitement is around. Oh this is the new this is the future. This is not just from a kind of environmental point of view but from a yeah, ah, the excitement around the torque that an electric vehicle can have and all these other elements as well. And so yeah, you know is that the case are folks kind of you know have basically internalized. Climate message and you know it’s these other elements now that actually are more inspirational in terms of building projects like this.

Cailey Patterson

I mean I think for everyone on the team. Yeah, our our own you know selfish priority was to build something but we were really excited about getting involved in ev once we realized that we could this is something that we could. Potentially do um because technology and ev is just moving so fast and arguably faster than it’s being developed. Um and you know I think we all share that same interest. ah ah I lost you for a second. Um I think that we all share that same interest to get into this industry that’s changing so fast and you know being a part of that movement and.

James McWalter

Yagenner.

Cailey Patterson

You know, potentially even you know, finding something new within that industry and ah the formula Student Universe to yeah.

James McWalter

You know we’ve kind of talked a little bit about this but let’s say ah you know there’s some bright students who or anybody they don’t have to be in a certain university but they have an idea they want to work on something and they don’t really know where to start right? Maybe it’s them and 1 friend or them and two friends and they’re like okay this is a project that we think would have a huge amount of impact. Yeah, and more maybe than anything else something that be really fun to work on for a couple of years what what should be like literally the first step that person would take.

Cailey Patterson

I mean that was started um like I said by group 6 students who were essentially just all sat in a room watching Tv and someone said do you want to build a car and. Now we’re building a car. So I think it’s just you know, finding that small group initially um and that you can reach out via Facebook groups. Messenger I found the team via email. So it’s just about. Getting the word out and because it’ll surprise you? Um, yeah there there will be more people who are interested in your project than you’d think.

James McWalter

And absolutely and another thing I would probably add to that is don’t wait. You know if you start and let’s say it’s 5 people sitting around watching Tv and and everyone’s like really excited and the next day it’s only you and 1 other who are like responding to the email to do that next step just keep going. People will come back in um, like it often just takes 1 or 2 people to just like put in those hard yards at the beginning and really drive forward and because yeah people have varying levels of risk appetite. And so what seems like a cool idea once they kind of realize amount of work involved. They may not necessarily want to do it right? this second but as a project has moved forward every single single step that the person or the founding group puts in de-risks it for the next person to join. Right? So somebody who is a slightly less risk tolerance but still wants to work on it like an early stage project like they might not be the one to literally send the 20 emails to just get it up and running but they might be the one once they get that email to do the next step and then somebody in their group. You extend the group might do the next step and so on um, and so you know it’s just a matter of like. Couple of people you know in this case is 5 or 6 people like just driving it forward from the beginning and like you know and that kind of mutual. Ah accountability is is incredibly powerful as well, right? It’s like you know I’m doing this. What are you doing and again it doesn’t have to be like a top-down, you know, looking over.

James McWalter

Each of the shoulders. It should be fun. It should be the kind of thing where um yeah, we’re we’re doing this together. Um, and that yeah is coupled with the accountability that we are actually doing it together.

Cailey Patterson

Yeah I completely agree I mean our whole premise of this first year in the competition is to set it up so that it’s not so painful next year for you know the generations of teams after us. Ah.

James McWalter

Right.

Cailey Patterson

And it’s kind of I mean even now you know I graduate in July I’m already kind of getting an idea of who might be able to replace me and how the interteam dynamics would work with that and hand over document. So yeah. I do think it’s all about that initial push.

James McWalter

You and you’re graduating. Um, what’s the plan after graduation.

Cailey Patterson

Um, um, I’d like ah to go into wealth management I’ve been working with a really great team for the past two summers. Um, and then hoping to go back.

James McWalter

And and where you’re looking to kind of relocate for that I don’t believe there’s a ton of wealth management in in St Andrews town itself. But yeah, where where you’re looking to to set up shop.

Cailey Patterson

Yes, I will be returning back to Texas got a little homesick. It’s a little cold and rainy here. Yeah.

James McWalter

It for desockk yeah I can imagine and especially with and and the sunlight a um, there was ah somebody I studied with who actually I think she’s also a texan who had to go back in January just because the darkness was but too much for her. Um, which I could be understand. It’s it’s quite a lot. Um bridge well Kaylee um, you know before you move off been great chatting is there anything I should have asked you about but did not.

Cailey Patterson

Um, um, I’d love to share some more about how you non-sudents and people outside of the University and the team can get involved. Yeah so ah at the moment.

James McWalter

Please.

Cailey Patterson

We’re in our fundraising stage and really what we’re looking for financial contribution would be great. Um, but we are really looking to connect with anyone who’s either interested in our project or interested in. Supporting us in some way. Um, and we offer a whole suite of packages to companies including in the marketing field. The way can I restart that I got distracted Sorry so we’re really looking.

James McWalter

You Yeah yet nowhere.

Cailey Patterson

For as many people to get involved in our project as possible whether that be via a financial contribution. Ah you know, exposure kind of like what we’re doing now. Um you know experience Expertise If You know someone who. Might be able to help us in some way we’re more than open to Welcom you weling you welcoming you to our team.

James McWalter

So brilliant and we’ll include some contact details in the show notes um, does brilliant. Thank you so much Kalee and and best to look with former student and the project.

Cailey Patterson

Um, yeah, thank you James.

Great to chat with Apoorv Bhargava, CEO & Co-founder at Weave Grid! WeaveGrid works with utilities and electric vehicle (EV) owners to enable and accelerate the electrification of transportation! We discussed the system solutions for decarbonizing electricity and transportation, the venture ecosystem’s view on climate, utilities as regulated monopolies, aligning incentives for a comprehensive energy policy and more!

WeaveGrid is also hiring, apply here!

https://carbotnic.com/weavegrid

Download Podcast Here: https://plinkhq.com/i/1518148418

Remember, If you want to support the podcast there are two amazing ways!

1. Subscribe to the Carbotnic patreon  
2. Rate 5 stars on Apple

Thanks so much! 

James

The unedited podcast transcript is below

James McWalter: Hello today we’re speaking with Apoorv Bhargava CEO and co-founder at Weavegrid welcome to the podcast Apoorv. Thank you so much. As was to start could you tell us a little bit about Weaverid.

Apoorv Bhargava: Hey, Thanks for having me James really excited to be here. Yeah, sure So Weavegrid is working at the intersection of the most carbon intensive industries in the World. So electricity and transportation as we think about decarbonizing both of those spaces. 1 of the the most important and most interesting things rather about what’s happening is that we’re seeing this curve happen obviously in the electricity space where we’re going from Centralized possible generation to more and more renewables and we’re hoping we can accelerate that as quickly as possible at the same time we’re seeing this s curve and this transition happening in automotive in the automotive world where we’re going from. Internal combustion engine vehicles to electric vehicles and I think the sort of genesis of the name but also the sort of resisone for this company is really that these 2 spaces are converging right in this moment they are both becoming 1 integrated system. They’re going from transportation and electricity. To electrified transportation and so what we’vegrid does is it tries to think about the systems levels problems and the system solutions that we can develop to enable that acceleration of electrobyte transportation to make sure that as more and more electric vehicles come onto the grid. The grid is ready to support them. And actually taking the really positive view. How can we leverage all these giant batteries on wheels in a way that can actually you know, almost add to the resiliency add to the value to the grid and make the grid make the grid really kind of even stronger and and more um. More valuable for all so that’s that’s what we’ve grid on we sit at that that intersection we work very closely. We’ve developed software that that helps utilities. That’s our core customer helps utilities and of course drivers who drive electric vehicles. Um, really kind of benefit from better charging and better understanding of charging.

James McWalter: So yeah, that makes a ton of sense and I guess you know sitting today in November of 2021 like absolutely yeah, you can very clearly see I think the average person on the street can see that these are apps you were at this juncture of this s curve. But I guess when you started the company a few years ago you know.

Apoorv Bhargava: And then of course better management of that charging.

Apoorv Bhargava: Um, yeah know when I we started the company of cute a few years ago it was funny I was at ah was at a climate happy hour last night and somebody said you know when you started the company a few years ago I thought you were crazy and I was like that’s great I’m glad I’m glad.

James McWalter: Was was that as known or there was a different initial inspiration to start the company.

James McWalter: That that’s what you want.

Apoorv Bhargava: Um, glad you thought I was crazy back then? um, but but it was. It’s funny like you know I’ve been in energy my whole career. My cofounder has been an energy and transportation is all career and I think what both of us saw was this like inevitability that was going to happen. But I think I’m um. You know and we can of course talk about my background later but like I’ve been trained both. You know, educationally, but also just workwise to think about the problem and how it affects every stakeholder and or any problem and how it affects every stakeholders and having empathy for all the stakeholders involved and I think as we thought about this rapid and impending. Growth in electrification. The question that kind of hit us was just that are people thinking about the second order effects. You know I think everybody often talks about the first order questions of are there enough charging stations are there enough batteries are there enough cars out there. All those kind of things and those are super important but our question really was philosophically like What could we as a small you know as a small startup do to accelerate decarbonization. Um, and that’s that’s our mission. You know at the end of the day like both my co-founder and I we we didn’t have like any sort of wild aspirations to go become startup ceo a startup ceo and as a startup. Ah, cto or whatever and just do that for the sake of it. We really wanted to say what can we do and what leverage can we provide to accelerate this decarbonization off our far economy and um as we thought about it. We said there’s this really important challenge that there’s very little understanding. In the whole system in in both these systems as this massive transformation happens and and actually data is really valuable in that and so if data is really valuable, then how do you build the software and the product around it to to enable understanding enable better management and and that’s. That’s the genesis of how we’ve get started. There was probably even more into that but we’ll leave it for later.

James McWalter: Well yeah I guess you know so you mentioned your co-founder. Yeah, how did that kind of initial relationship come about you know and and I guess as you’re kind of ideating on what? yeah, we’ve bridge could become and eventually did become I guess this you know random coffees you know, are you meeting socially like how did that all go.

Apoorv Bhargava: Um, yeah, it’s actually funny to say that so so we were both at graduate school at Stanford I was getting my mba and my Ms. In energy and environment and resources engineering and. I had kind of come in asking a few different questions I had had a career before that working again in clean energy and and and climate related things and um, always at the intersection of technology and climate technology and and energy. But when I came into grad school my my 3 big questions were really like okay, how do we innovate better in this sector. Where does venture play a role where does other kinds of financing play a role. What’s changing rapidly on the battery side I’m I’m a chemical engineer by training so I had done a lot of research and in sort of nanomaterials and batteries and so that kind of stuff previously in another life and then you know what? what role the do tools like machine learning and so forth have. In in the space of energy and climate. How can you leverage that given that there’s so much data today which still wasn’t even ten years ago john my cofounder he had he has had sort of ah a mirror image but but different background where he had also. He was also at Stanford getting his ph d in what’s known as management science and engineering very operations, heavy energy modeling about his whole core thesis and and focus was actually on on evs. In fact, he had worked for the cto and cofounder of tesla j b strabble for many years and in fact had also been his ta when jb taught at stanford. And so I think John had seen that world and understood that look at electrification is happeninging. It’s going to be inevitable and I had seen it more from the the utility side but we both didn’t really know each other in graduate school though and so we had a mutual friend who now happens to be a vc as is the way and he was like. Hey you should. You should both connect and so I still remember our first meeting was ah was a coffee and and I keep joking with John we’ve been coffee. We’ve been dating founder dating for a 3 and a half years since then he claims were found or married at this point but you know ah that might work out. Um, but yeah, so we met for coffee started talking I think.

James McWalter: It might work out.

Apoorv Bhargava: We both understood that there were a lot of unanswered questions and I think we we realized that there were some things that were happening rightly and there were some things that people just not thinking deeply enough about and and that led to more and more coffee gates and here we are 3 and a half years on.

James McWalter: Yeah I guess like looking again kind of at where the space is right now you know we’ve seen a ton of sps in the ev space utilities are finally getting some boat internal but also some regulatorgatory pressure to actually open up. Ah you know x for 44 eight forty 1 all these kind of things have been passed.

Apoorv Bhargava: Are.

Apoorv Bhargava: Um, no, you’re really knowledgeable about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, very good.

James McWalter: And so um, so like again, it seems like now like there are a huge amount of kind of tailwinds to kind of make the speed up kind of development of the company. But what do those first couple of years look like in terms of like what initial mvp looked like the initial traction of that woman.

Apoorv Bhargava: Totally yeah I mean it’s interesting to to think back to those days and just think about different as a percentage that we spent our first year so we we met in 2018 early 2018 and we spend our basically almost our first year just doing product market fit analysis I was having this conversation again recently with someone with just said you know, but what was the technology. How did you like come out. Did you come out of lab. What did you do and I was like no no, no, we we had a technology idea we had an idea of what the tech and all the stack would look like but. But fundamentally we we were first fixated by the problem and the problem was what happens when all these vehicles come on to both the road and then the grid right at the same time and what impact does that start to create across the entire system and and again for all the stakeholders who are involved in that system’s transition. What value but also what pain do they each experience and how do we build something that works for them so we spent most of 2018 frankly, living off of that ramen that classic Robin budget and and and just spending time talking to as many potential customers partners users. But we could. We got a really, we were really fortunate to get a grant from Stanford about 50 K I used to hire some interns. We did some market research flew out to conferences John tried to finish up his ph d I think I definitely distracted him from that and so we just spent like ah almost a whole year just doing that. Literally didn’t even incorporate the company and yeah, when we when we started to really see conviction that hold on there’s something here because everyone’s seeing they’re worried they’re thinking about this. They’re not yet committed but they’re thinking about it as like okay there’s something here. There’s a negative fit.

James McWalter: So.

Apoorv Bhargava: And yeah, that’s when we started to to pull together. You know, put put together the company itself incorporated the company and started kind of developing a little bit of an Mvp showing that to customers and saying is this what you would buy would you be interested in it. How much would you pay for it like you know doing that classic kind of customer customer. The the kind of like asking customers. The right questions I guess and then just making sure that there’s validation from them. Um, ours are enterprise customers. So it’s not easy. It takes time to to build those relationships to to put yourself out there to to get that feedback and so we did a lot of that work and then. Yeah, ended up in 2019 approaching the the venture ecosystem which at that point did not view climate and especially selling to utilities did not feel that as a as a hot space so that was a that was a pretty interesting experience going through fundraising but I think we we were. You know, very fortunate and very well just very privileged that we had the opportunity to meet a bunch of venture capitalists and also I had had a brief stint in vc so so new enough of the ecosystem and raised a small round initially and then started building on our team and really building out the product.

James McWalter: Right? And then we we kind of ask forward to now and everybody the amount of Vc dollar is pouring into space is kind of extraordinary. Um, and so I’m sure fundraising now has gotten slightly more selective and easier I’d imagine.

Apoorv Bhargava: Um, that’s only. Um, it’s different.. It’s definitely a lot different now. Yeah um I I think I think it’s I think it’s about time that the space gets this as somebody who’s kind of worked on both sides I mean like I think ah.

James McWalter: Um.

Apoorv Bhargava: Ah, it’s wonderful to see this amount of capital flowing and I think public markets have started to figure out first that climate esg all these all these issues are really really, really a big deal and and are going to. Be 1 of the greatest you know, kind of wealth creation opportunities. But also 1 of the greatest dollars can actually produce some of the most meaningful impact and I think as that as that realization is kind of sunk through to the private markets and private investors. Obviously that that that. And see dollars are now starting to accelerate too. So it’s been really wonderful to see that there’s still a huge concentration effect I really still think that there are a ton of amazing companies out there who are still not getting funded and there’s still ah only a small handful who are but but at least that handful is growing. So I feel grateful for that.

James McWalter: Yeah, this is an extraordinary kind of matching issue that still remains like I was talking to a vc friend yesterday and he’s a clean tech vc in New York and he’s like all I think about is like how to improve dealflow and then I talked to to tons of founders who are just like absolutely struggling to get funded at all and it is ah.

Apoorv Bhargava: Um, ah grab.

James McWalter: I guess like the actual conversations just are not don’t think being ad and the signal is not being produced strong enough for I guess startups to actually know where to show right? because like if you’re not part of the game like really hard to kind of break into the game to certain extent. And then vice versa like vcs who are you know looking in theory for the Diamond and the rough founders or or startups that are just all around the world. Um, like where those people are congregating is bit of bit of opaque but as much as you want.

Apoorv Bhargava: How much do you want me to opine over here versus Okay, well here’s here’s what I’ll say I think I think having having perhaps both deployed vc dollars but also having like explored and raised from and just like. Thought deeply about the rest of the possible capital stack that could exist I think 1 of the very very very big challenges that we’re dealing with still is that in the early stage fundraising environment if you have a great idea that could be transformational from a climate impact perspective but also. Are not sure if it can grow in the ways that the Vc asset classes used to it can still be really hard to fundraise and the reality is that vc I mean we can dub whatever types of vc what we want to, but like you can call it deep Tech Climate Tech X Y Z Tech Abc tech. But the reality is like Vc has to look like a certain way and a lot of our business model and a lot of the way I had to think when we were building this company was can it fit into a model that not the the climate focus and the clean tech focus people back then can understand but also the andreessen Horowitzs could understand. Because if you can’t get them to believe in it and you can’t get them to buy that like there is something here that’s going to grow and it’s going to look like a vc return if it’s if it succeeds it’s going to look like vc returns then it’s really hard to fundraise and I think there is still that gap which is that to your point you’ve probably met a ton of climate founders who are like I’ve got a great idea I’ve got a great business. And then you’ve got vcs saying oh I Just don’t know where to go find them and and that that mismatch happens because we still lack the capital or the conviction from some vcs that these businesses could be billions of dollars and sometimes we lack the actual capital type that should fund those companies because they aren’t going to grow. In that J Curve esque way and so maybe there’s something else that that needs to fund them. It’s been a. It’s been a huge like passion project of mine to find how we how we fill that that that capital gap and yeah.

James McWalter: Yeah, it’s the you know I often talk to like other kind of climate founders and and that and I’m always like you need 2 decks right? You need like deck for the impact like of venture source and then the impact ah the deck for everybody else and like how you structure.

Apoorv Bhargava: And.

1

James McWalter: Your story is going to be quite different and like 1 of them has a much more tabm and business model first than the other which is about you know molecules of carbon being the sequester or whatever it may be um.

Apoorv Bhargava: Um, totally.

Apoorv Bhargava: Um, yep.

James McWalter: You know 1 of the other things you you mentioned is who you sell to right and the trepidation that I guess some not just vcs as we’re talking about but in general when I’ve looked at the energy space and potential ideas for myself I’ve looked at utilities and sign to utilities and it completely terrified me. Um I guess you know you you do come out of ah like a clean energy kind of approach. Um.

Apoorv Bhargava: Ah.

James McWalter: But a lot of the sales cycles for utilities I think can be multiple years Sometimes there’s not always the right incentives internally. Um, how have you found kind of selling to utilities. And yeah as as a kind of general approach for not just yourselves. But then I guess other founders in the space.

Apoorv Bhargava: Sure.

Apoorv Bhargava: Um, absolutely so this is gonna this is you know if this podcast makes it to energy Twitter one day ah this is either gonna make me friends or lose me friends I don’t know. But um, the way probably both It’s fine. That’s just the life of Twitter. Ah I think I think the reality is that like. We love painting narratives of black and white and like none of those narratives making a ton of sense I I think utilities are let me let me back up before even going into utilities and who they are as stakeholders I think the electric grid is the most amazing and transformative technology. That as a society we have had the privilege to to benefit from and if we don’t see if we don’t understand that like I think we’re doing ourselves a huge disservice. The twentieth century would not have been possible. Had it not been for the fact that you can flip a switch and have access to light have access to power have access to motive force have access to all these things. Like we’ve just done so so so easily now like I mean we don’t even think about the fact that literally we’re blowing things up in the background somewhere or transmitting a bunch of power across massive power lines and bringing it to our homes like we just don’t think about it. It’s literally disappeared in the background given that I think. Transformative effect that that has had on societies and I can speak to this as a person who has seen countries without that that privilege like it is so transformational from a development perspective from an industrial perspective from everything I think of course there are going to be stakeholders whose job. It is to build and maintain that. Incredible infrastructure I think utilities I’ve done that and I’ve done that really well. So my question is as you think about the next wave of what we need to transform which is mobility what platform do I believe can give us the ability to scale that super quickly cost effectively. And do it in a way where where we can actually you know we can. We can actually like make that electrified future happen and what tools and services. Do we need to provide those people and be empathetic to the fact that you know they’ve got they’ve got Regulators who regulate them. That’s a good thing about being a Monopoly utility you have you are regulated you know and then. There’s a lot of businesses that I won’t I won’t name names but like who aren’t regulated and are basically monopolies so at least utilities are regulated monopolies and and I think that’s ah, that’s a really great thing because it means that they are constantly scrutinized and ask questions of like why are you spending these dollars what objectives are you trying to meet. And there’s a great set of stakeholder. There’s a stakeholder dynamic around that for that reason though, you know they’re prudent in the way they behave they’re they’re obviously risk averse because every decision they take if it causes the power to go out. Yeah, it’s a really big deal lives are at at Stake you know so they’re slow their risk.

James McWalter: No.

Apoorv Bhargava: Risk averse etc. That said electrification is something that they are super excited about and want to enable oh by the way transportation is 31 percent of emissions. It’s the largest form of emissions in the United states electricity is actually only 29 percent and I mean I say only but like. Reality is like that’s an amazing opportunity for utilities to both continue helping the decarbonization pathway of their own fleets on on the on the power plant site but also to actually enable the future of electrification and leverage this grid this platform that has done everything from you know, massively industrialized certain countries and. Provide really high quality power for all of us so that we can live these lives with computers and phones and all of this other stuff and now electric cars and I think to me it was about being empathetic to our customer recognizing that nobody goes to work at a utility because they want to burn a ton of coal and like. A bad person. No they want to go there because they think they’re doing a really great job helping people and helping people’s lives and there’s some really really smart people inside of utilities and so understanding what they really needed not what I think they need not what I want them to want but what they really need. And then making sure that our product actually meets those meets those needs and provides those provides those outcomes for them. It is a long sale cycle. You know you’re not wrong about that. But I think about a lot of other climate tech like there’s a lot of you know there’s a lot of development time and technology to be risking time in all these like. You know, carbon removal companies and things like that so time is time like that time can go into technology. They’re risking. It can go into product Market. Be risking. It can go into sales ultimately the question I ask myself is like do I have confidence in our technology do I have confidence in our ability to execute do i. The ability to hire an amazing team to go execute against it and do I think that sales being lengthy is something that I can continue to shrink down and and I have confidence in all those things. So um I think I think it’s a lot less risky to some extent than than hoping that like this new innovative approach to I’m just going to pick on technology Green hydrogen works. 10 years from now and then I can sell it and scale it after those 10 years like it’s it’s just as risky or probably more so.

James McWalter: That’s super interesting I mean in 1 sense, you know we’re going to elect try everything right? or some portion of the world economy over the next few decades and so the centrality of utilities and people who are managing the energy and in some sort of way becomes ever more important and I guess like 1 of the I guess the.

Apoorv Bhargava: This. Yeah.

James McWalter: And I’ve talked to maybe a dozen utilities as part of some my own kind of research on and on different ideas and I guess like the thing that I would love to see potentially morphine utilities is kind of ah a bit more of a seasonizing of the day like you know the utilities save the world right? like you are the heroes of the of the potential future to a certain extent like in the enablement of the technology. And all these other elements that are emergent right? So like Green hydrogen doesn’t work without a massively like larger more fortified grid with basically you know negative and negative solar power costs. You know, same for direct our capture same for vertical farming like a lot of these things are very very dependent on a.

Apoorv Bhargava: Are here. Yeah.

James McWalter: Yeah, a clean grid a but then also like ubiquitous cheap solar and some of the other types of renewable energy all built on you know wires that a utility at the end of the day in any sort of 30 year time horizon will still be run by utilities to a certain extent. so um so I guess like so 1 of the things I’m still trying to figure out and maybe some of this is regulation. Maybe some of this is just.

Apoorv Bhargava: Shirt. Sure.

Apoorv Bhargava: Um.

James McWalter: Pressure being brought on to bear by companies like wavegrid and so on is about like how the incentives like pledgey have to shift because the incentives in the I guess old world right were but are maybe not kind of suitable for the new world that’s kind of emergent. So how do you think about those kind of incentives. What levers could potentially have to be pulled.

Apoorv Bhargava: Um, yeah I think it’s a fantastic question and and I also I think I also sometimes feel similarly ah sad that like you can’t grab the the opportunity by the horns as easily right. I mean it comes down to like what the definition of the institution is the institution that is today called the utility in America is generally about the maintenance and the upkeep off poles and wires that bring electricity to your home There are some utilities who also own power generation. Are some entities that are not utilities but are what are known as independent power producers who do ah produce power and sell into energy markets and do things like that I think every utility is asking themselves a bunch of questions of like what can we do, but ultimately it comes down to like what are they regulated and able to do. And I think there’s an intense debate going on between like for example and and this is the area we operate in. But there’s an intense debate going on is to can Monopoly utilities own and operate like the default charging stations that are required across. Like an entire service territory right? So instead of having 15 different brands of chargers where my keyring looks like I have like you know a thousand different key cards and things like that can I just have 1 experience across my entire ah entire utility service territory right. And if you if you kind of shock to the federal government. They’re talking about now creating a federal charging network and all that so like how do we simplify that. How do we make that easy. Well I think if you talk to most utilities, you’ll say yeah I want to do that I totally want to do that I have onboard but under what jurisdictional authority are they allowed to do those things right. My argument is. It’s probably the most efficient thing there’s reasons why you don’t want that to happen also but like okay like what what do we all care about and I think the problem is that we all don’t care about the same thing I care about decarbonizing as quickly as possible. Don’t care as much about the extension of Monopoly power for somebody who is already regulated as a monopoly because that’s a whole point of regulation. It is to make sure that they don’t make unfair profits and so Forth. Um, and I think like that is a different view frankly like that is 1 of my hot takes that I often have when it comes to like. You know, debating others in my field is like I don’t I don’t think that there’s that much sense to like balkanizing every part of clean energy and making it such a complex ecosystem to navigate that like we actually lose sight of why we’re doing this in the first place which is decarbonizing as damn quickly as possible.

Apoorv Bhargava: Seizing the day on every other thing from Green hydrogen to vertical farms to all of that I think again like there is a question of what can the regulated and the unregulated arm do if you are regulated. You are regulated as a monopoly because of the compact that you struck which is like I own every single customer and in order to do so. Have to like you know, not make unfair profits and here are all these opportunities to make unfair profits in some sense right? and so it’s like who you know what can the platform that the utility has with their customers with the grid itself the neutral physical platform. What can they do. To enable all these amazing technologies that will decarbonize the future and I think there are a lot of ways where you can accelerate that you can you can improve it. Some of it is cultural. You have to of course you know you’ve got to have the right people inside these institutions. Some of it is technical. So of it is simplest processes I mean seriously, there’s like antiated processes and in many institutions where you are talking about like oh I need to go get this permit this is going to take me 15 pieces of paper that have to me move from 1 department to the other because that’s just how it worked and nobody’s thought about going and upgrading that. But I think 1 gives me a lot of hope is that. There’s a big utility backed fund called energy impact partners based out of new york and a couple of other places they just raised a billion dollar fund today like the climate focus vc fund growths fund I mean that’s amazing. You know, like that is that is so cool to see that kind of capital also moving in of course a lot of it is going to be strategically aligned. So. I I totally agree with you. It’s it’s 1 of those moments where I’m like ah it would be amazing. but I but I think this kind of goes to the comprehensive this this just goes to a frustrated for mine for the last decade and a half that I’ve been working in the sector which is like we just don’t have comprehensive energy policy in this country or climate policy. And I think if we had more comprehensive policy I think then we could have the conversation of like who owns jurisdictional rights to do what and you know does a carbon price or a carbon fee or whatever you want to call it does that for example, align incentives in a certain way because it all comes back to exactly what you said which is. How do we align incentives to do the right thing right? And and I think there are there are pricebased signals. You can take there are regulatory based approaches. You can take and and the question is just like what do you need to do to to accelerate that. Um, yeah I don’t know that answer to your question I think I just too great. Ah.

James McWalter: Yeah, no, no, it’s it’s super helpful I mean I I guess kind of you know, thinking about like specific kind of paths to where we’re we’re potentially going to go over the next you know, 5 to ten years and I guess I’d love to kind of get back into. You know the the role we’ve it’s going to play in in those kind of immediate next five to 10 years but 1 of the kind of things I keep thinking about is once you start getting to thirty percent plus ev penetration for a given jurisdiction right? particularly in cities where you might not have like ah a ton of single-fami homes for people to plug in. Um, what does the Friday before long weekend but fourth fourth july weekend look like right? like do you have? ah you know queues down the road.

Apoorv Bhargava: Um, yeah, yeah.

James McWalter: Um, do you have just a kind of all of a sudden like there’s going to be some weekend that’s going to be very very stressful to the average ev owner because all of a sudden. There’s just tons of evs and then you also get into ideas around like straight on the grid.

Apoorv Bhargava: Um, yeah, exactly.

James McWalter: Um, maybe they’re all trying to charge at the exact same time if you all of a sudden have this massive spike in the price of electricity at like 6 p m on a Friday before fourth july weekend like what what does that mean and what is the reaction to the average consumer to and does that potentially like slow down the adoption of dvs and so you know I think often like I think having learned a bit but.

Apoorv Bhargava: Um, totally.

James McWalter: We’ve grade like I think a lot about how we’ve gri can potentially like you know, help stop something like that kind of happen. So yeah’d I’d love to hear how you think yeah, weve it’s going to have that sort of impact of the next couple years

Apoorv Bhargava: Ah, hundred hundred percent. So. that’s that’s like that’s again the whole reason for starting this company. It’s it’s it is the belief that you know the the system that is electricity is incredibly powerful. It is incredibly it has just been such an amazing amazing system. Drive so much growth and so much prosperity and so forth and at the same time electrifying transportation is a very necessary thing we need to do in order to decarbonize transportation that said the grid is not ready for that many vehicles to show up tomorrow. It could be ready in 10 years question is do we have 10 years to to slowly and gently bring them online so exactly to your point if we want to grow electrification exponentially what steps do we need to take both at a planning level at a management level at a forecasting and prediction level at an intelligence level to just understand and manage. All of this growth of ah evs and really really importantly going back to the consumer. How do we ensure that this incredibly huge behavior shift that’s happening where a person goes from driving an internal combustion engine vehicle to driving an electric car. That behavior shift happens in a way which is seamless and where the customer doesn’t have to ever worry because anxiety is like you know people talk about range anxiety I think there’s charging anxiety and I think like charging anxiety kills people more kills this this thing slows down the growth way more than range anxiety does I think we’re going to. Surpass range anxiety easily in the next couple years and I think charging anxiety too will also be removed as more and more cars are capable of really fast charging but that doesn’t actually explain consumer behavior like most consumer behavior is not the fourth of july weekend and I think like. That’s the point is like actually ninety five percent of consumer behavior is something totally different and so how do we take that behavior. How do we take? The. How do we take the the implications of that behavior if that driving and charging behavior and turn that into insights analytics management. Everything for the entity. That’s managing the grid. And also enable them and other stakeholders who are trying to put out the requisite infrastructure such that when it comes to those edge cases. No 1 is ever feeling stranded or or not not ready to do what they need to do right? and so I just think I think that’s that’s like. Fundamentally the question behind wevegrid right? is like how do we enable this like this electrification transformation to not run into roadblocks and and speed bumps. Um, as as it kind of takes off and and and we think that there’s a there’s a there’s a ton of work but but like any system you got to start with just understanding things.

Apoorv Bhargava: I mean I feel like you know, um I always use the the metaphor of like you got to monitor and understand you then got to predict and then you’ve got to manage and you know I think that that applies to basically every system in the world. But but I think especially now so with electrification.

James McWalter: I Guess like in a situation where we’vegrid is deployed. You know I’m I’m an Ev driver wevegrid is deployed in my local Mo local utility like what? what? how does my experience change.

Apoorv Bhargava: Yeah, your experience looks really damn good. Ah, basically um, if you’re if you’re a customer in a utility where reprint is deployed your utility would offer you some sort of. Better rateed or a incentive or whatever and through very very very simple, um, experience through a very simple customer experience. That’s all kind of white labeled. It’s white labeled eds or it’s your utility as your auto make or whatever the stakeholders that you’re comfortable and they’re aware of we’ve could basically. Brings together those data streams that matter to us you go through a 2 step signon process takes probably a minute and then on the back end what the utility gets to see is again that analytics those insights. All of that. But for the consumer you have access to suddenly. Wide variety of charging insights understanding what you’re doing behaviorally understanding what you could be doing better and then most importantly, just setting and forgetting hikiope want to have to think about your charging again. dayto- dayto day. You just want to come home plug in your car. And the charging will be taken care of and that’s what we enable for you as a consumer of course while saving you money of course whilst getting you the the cleanest energy possible of course while doing all of those things but like we we consider that table Stakes. We consider you being fully charged. We consider you being you know, getting the greenest and cleanest. Electricity fully you know like as table stakes and I think the key thing is like we want to remove any cognitive burden that you feel as a consumer your needs always come first as a consumer that is like the thing we believe is like actually the utility needs to understand the consumer’s needs and needs to play with. What availability the consumer provides them not the other way around and I think there’s too much conversation in the energy world of like but what can the consumer give the utility. It’s like no no, no the consumer’s needs come first and then whatever is remaining goes to the grid and the utility and so forth.

James McWalter: So and so I guess then you know I let’s say I have an ev I want it fully charged in the morning because I need to call my commute. But for example, would it be something like I only charge between 2 am and 5 am because there’s actually electricity very cheap. The grid is very stable at that time and night and that would be optimized.

Apoorv Bhargava: Um, yeah.

Apoorv Bhargava: Sure I think I think you would not have to think about any of that like again, my point is like we should not be asking people to make those kinds of decisions because no matter no matter how much information we provide you like you’ll never really know.

James McWalter: Everybody involved.

Apoorv Bhargava: The exact right time and the reason I say that is because those rates that you’re describing those like really cheap charging rates and so Forth. They only actually tackle a part of the system that is at risk from electrification. They’re only actually helping us take advantage of like the cheapest power prices. But it doesn’t actually start to help us understand like what risk the rest of the grid is at if everybody starts charging at 2 am and so it’s actually not beneficial for everybody to to be charging it to am it is beneficial for us to spread the charging out and so our view is like we just don’t want you to have to think about it. It will be done. It will be fully charged. It will be charged well before you need it.

James McWalter: That makes sense 1 of the things I notice about weavegrid because you mentioned white labeling and 1 of the I guess struggles I’ve had with as I’ve dug into the energy space is that a lot of the big kind of exciting companies tend to be vertically integrated.

Bhargava: And you just need to go home and plug it in.

James McWalter: And when I look across like where are the horizontal companies right? Where are the you know type of energy the Aws of energy like you know companies that service a lot of stakeholders like across the energy space. Um, and we’verid is you know a horizontal play that I think is absolutely Fascinating. Um, but I guess you know so my question is like are there other kind of. Yeah, where is there scope for more innovation. More smart people to kind of come in particularly in horizontal plays and it could be to do it. Tv It could be you know anything within clean energy. Um, because I’ve talked to tos of people who want to like get involved or coming from a software but or data background and energy is so hard to get into that like everyone just.

Apoorv Bhargava: So yeah.

James McWalter: Seems to end up. Well let’s get some assets and then let’s vertically integrate all the way up to you know some customers and kind of go up through there rather than um, building software data that actually can service a lot of different stakeholders. Yeah.

Apoorv Bhargava: Um, ah, it’s really hard but I think it’s really hard I think that’s why most people don’t do it. So so transparently the reason I think we are that way is because we just spent an immense amount of time understanding each of the stakeholders involved and. Also we’re ready to take the bet that even though the stakeholder sales our conversion cycle. Whatever you want to call it right is long. It just it’s it’s something that um we were willing to better so bet on and we were willing to bet that like we could we could get through that. How do you innovate better. How how do you create more horizontal businesses in this space. Um I think you have to look the like the constant struggle right? between vertical and horizontal is like you have to look for products or you have to build a product rather you have to look for a need that is consistent across every single um across every single stakeholder. And then once you find that need you have to build a product around that need that can easily scale horizontally but energy has not traditionally been that way like I think it is it is ah it is an industry that has been built around a lot of bespoke use cases and things like that and so I think 1 of the classic examples of this often right is like. People who try to break into energy tech and say oh like I’m going to go solve building energy efficiency and that is like the 1 where like most people go in and they’re like well there’s 1 hundred thousand buildings in the city of new york what I’m making it up and then they realize building a building b. We’re go to building 100 thousand all look entirely freaking different and it’s so hard then to build a horizontal business because what you end up saying is like actually this is just there is no consistency right? So I think but that’s not true. You just have to keep digging. You have to keep looking. You have to find. Have to find the thing that every 1 of those those entities is experience in the the same pain that every 1 of those entities experienced so I don’t know if I answer the question but what I would say is like spend time really getting to know your customer I mean that’s that’s the thing that’s just like we spent so long doing obsess less than the technology obsess more in the customer. That’s like that gives you the the patterns of like oh this could go horizontal. This could go article and I I’ll just say like again having worn an investor hat previously and and some of the angel mess against so forth that I do like I I have noticed so many people who want to pitch me on like the ai for this and the ai and the ml for that like.

James McWalter: Makes a Thomas sense.

Apoorv Bhargava: Look guys like that’s all great, but ultimately like what is the pain point you’re going to actually solve and like that that is what I want to hear.

James McWalter: Right? Like talk talk pain talk problem. Don’t talk the buzzwords which are very easy like those can always be added later. You know.

Apoorv Bhargava: Totally and I actually think like that’s the thing that tech does so well I mean like honestly our team is you know we have a ton of expertise and internal Expertise internal knowledge about utilities Policymakers I often joke like. Our stack starts at the regulator and goes all the way down to our kubernetes cluster like we have to think all the way and and but at the same time like we we like have hired some of the best and brightest people from companies like slack Google Facebook you name it like get around I mean like we have. Ah, very traditional and incredibly and I say traditional but like incredibly smart tech team and engineering team because the problems are the same and and this resonated a lot with them when we describe what we were doing because they’re like wait I get it like this is this is a data problem. Um, So yeah I think I think I Think. Tech knows how to solve these problems. It’s just you got to spend time actually getting to know your customer.

39:45.36 James McWalter: And I guess you know as you’ve kind of yeah as a role in your role a ceo right? Um I believe this is first time you’ve been ceo of a company. It’s been a few years in you’re you’re hitting again. This inflection point or you’re kind of you know the company’s doing quite well, what’s your biggest surprise as a ceo over the last few years.

Apoorv Bhargava: So. Oh.

Apoorv Bhargava: Oh that’s a good question. What has might been my biggest surprise over the last few years. Ah that it’s been doing so well I don’t know I just like I I’m like wow this worked I think you live. Live in a lot of imposter syndrome when you’re when you’re starting a company and like here we are we were 6 people pre covid and this week we’re 36 I think we’re going to like 45 or something in the end of here. Um I don’t know I think my biggest a surprise is just like ah.

James McWalter: Yeah.

Apoorv Bhargava: There’s team surprise and then there said I think there’s personal surprise I Think let me start with the personal surprise. My personal surprise is like being being deeply appreciative to just like all the mentors all the like investors friends family Whoever who has taken. So much effort to like continue to guide me keep me motivated dealt with my ups and Downs. Of course my cofounder goes in there like the ups and downs of running a company and like that has enabled me personally to grow and recognize my strengths and of course very importantly, my weaknesses I think at a team level.

James McWalter: Button.

Apoorv Bhargava: I day in day out I’m just amazed at like I’m a big big big believer in delegation and like I’m just amazed like at the capacity that individuals have to like go from day 1 saying hey I came in wanting to do this 1 x y z thing and that’s what I was told and like by day ninety they’re saying. Actually owned 3 other things and I have it under control. Don’t you worry about it and I’m just so blown away every time I see that because I’m like I didn’t even tell you to do that’s amazing. How did you figure that out and that that blows my mind every day because I think every time we’ve added even 1 person. We suddenly see this like. Exponential expansion of capabilities. That’s just like mind blowing to me when I remember myself like me and John sitting there tunneling write out a bunch of crap by ourselves everything from the powerpoint deck to the Mvp to the whatever and like here we are and I’m like like all these amazing people doing all these crazy things. So i. That that continues to all unsurpris me every day I don’t I don’t have much better for that for that answer.

James McWalter: Love love that I guess like on the imposster syndrome Piece. It is this fascinating thing I was in a room full of founders. The youngest of which was 18 the oldest of which you know in their forty s and like everyone’s like talking about you know of like to be by definition in that room like everyone thinks they’ll build a billion dollar company but then like. Also thinking in the elevator up or down like I’m just full shit like you know it know it’s just like you’re just moving between these 2 like extremes like on constant basis. Um, poor. This has been absolutely Brilliant. Oh massive This has been brilliant I Guess from finish up is there anything I should ask you about but did not.

Apoorv Bhargava: I’m full of shit. Yeah.

Bhargava: The Cognitive dissonance. Yeah. About the 1 Sorry no I Love these conversations I don’t I don’t think so I mean like here’s the thing we’re Growing. We’re hiring, please come check out our roles I think that’s great I Think for everybody who’s listening to this podcast.

James McWalter: Is there anything I should have asked you about but did not.

Apoorv Bhargava: Keep listening to amazing podcasts like this keep getting inspired by the things you hear by the people you talk to and seriously like come up with ideas reach out to people talk to people. It is so amazing I like take four to 5 calls from people that I know I’m never going to hire a week but I just talk to them because I want more people in the sector I think a market success for me is. Seeing more people in the sector of course I want this company to succeed. Of course you know I want to grow it do all that but like I just want to see so many more people come into this, you know and I think that’ll that’ll that’ll truly be what we need that is truly what we need to to make a dent and to to really go after climate change and um, yeah, like. But you know on a very personal and and selfish note go check out the jobs and we’ve read and I’m sure sure a lot of you will be good fit there.

James McWalter: And we’ll add it to the show notes. And yeah I definitely echo those sentiments. Thank you very much.

Apoorv Bhargava: Yeah, likewise. Cheers! Thanks so much James.

Great to chat with Rebecca Wolkoff, CTor at ChargeNet Stations, a cleantech SaaS company creating the EV charging experience of the future using renewable energy in fast food parking lots! We discussed the carbon footprint of solar energy storage, the lack of incentives to export the energy, how smart software can enable low energy prices, the biggest changes in the energy space and more!

https://carbotnic.com/chargenet

Download Podcast Here: https://plinkhq.com/i/1518148418