Great to chat with Ben Rubin Co-founder and Executive Director of the Carbon Business Council! The Carbon Business Council is comprised of leading carbon management growth companies working to reverse climate change! We discussed carbon management technologies, the climate bill framework, voluntary vs mandatory carbon markets and more!
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James
The unedited podcast transcript is below
James McWalter
Hello today speaking with Ben Rubin executive director and co-founder of the Carbon Business Council, welcome to podcast Ben.
Ben Rubin
Thanks! Thanks! so much for having me here. James thank you.
James McWalter
Great Um, to start could you tell us a little bit about the carbon business council.
Ben Rubin
So happy to yeah, the carbon business council is a nonprofit trade association with more than forty carbon management startups who are working to help restore the climate by removing CO2 utilizing cotwo and and just a range of other ways of how we can. Deal with this problem of all of the legacy emissions we have in the atmosphere and and rethinking how we approach co 2 We are a trade association of innovators. Ah there’s many early stage companies that are part of it because we believe that innovation and the approaches it terms bring to carbon management is going to be key for unlocking solutions for how we. Scalup to to gigatonn scale carbon management.
James McWalter
And you know trade association I think you might be the First Trade Association we’ve had on the podcast and so and they’re obviously like you know, very very strong levers for the spreading and the development of certain types of industry certain types of technology and so on. What drove the initial decision to start co two bc.
Ben Rubin
So yeah, yeah, well we see innovators in the space and early stage companies moving forward very impactful solutions but because policy is going to be so critical to getting to gigaten scale Removal. We We saw a need to bring these innovators to the policy table to make sure that the unique needs of startups were represented as as government policies are being developed to move carbon management forward and we did not want startups to be left out of the conversation so we had conversations with dozens of companies to understand would a trade association be helpful. What types of services would be most advantageous to early stage companies and across the board. There was a lot of excitement for for the types of services the approach we put together and and we’ve been pleased with with ah stakeholder support as well of just people recognizing that. Startups do have such an important role to play in how we had Gigaton Scal removal and and how there can be a benefit to coming together and having a stronger voice and.
James McWalter
And so when you’re having those early conversations you know, thinking about the none you know none None to twelve months as you’re developing the C O 2 Bc um what were the kind of main commonalities I guess between different startups because as I look at the list of your members. You know some are obviously very focused on. Yeah. A cultural based carbon sequestration. Some are more direct or capture. Yeah, a large variance in terms of the technological approaches and generally the business models as well. Um, so yeah so what what were those kind of commonalities you recognize early on.
Ben Rubin
Yeah, you’re picking up on a great point. There James one of the biggest common nowities actually across every single person we spoke with was the desire for there business council to be technology neutral I think across the board companies felt like it was too soon in the game to pick winners and losers and that. We have to see what is going to be most successful where will the technology cost curve been the most and so there was you know a desire from folks to to not have any None technology favor too soon in policymaking I think without also recognition that. As we look towards 2030 when we are hopefully removing gigatonns of co 2 from the atmosphere that it will ultimately very likely be a blending of different approaches that’s going to help get us there both removing utilizing the c o 2 storing it and so that was a commonally commonality across the board that that tech neutral approach. And then a lot of the services that that we developed having companies come together to be able to network having companies better track the conversations happening in Dc to understand policy. There was just there was recognition that. Because the the carbon management industry you know is so locked into policy that there’s a benefit to to feed that Intel the startups and and to bring them to the to the table to interface with lawmakers directly.
James McWalter
And thinking about you know as you have like a new industry you often have like a larger in essence a b two b series of companies emerge to support that industry and so when you think about what a company that makes sense for the C O 2 Bc looks like versus None that’s a little bit adjacent makes that sense. Um, do you have any kind of firm delineations over what’s a great candidate to be part of the trade association versus something that might be a supportive set of technologies but isn’t core to your mission.
Ben Rubin
Yeah, we are working to represent the the full value chain when it comes to carbon management. So as an example, if a company is removing cotwo from the atmosphere and that could be through direct air capture or another type of technology. What is going to happen with with that co 2 and that’s where those types of b to b connections between companies is it being stored underground. There are companies rising on that challenge thinking through geologic sequestration and how to make that happen. There are also companies thinking through if that co 2 is not being. Stored underground if it’s being utilized. Can we help take that co two and turn it into jet fuel or turn it into a consumer product and so really we see a value and and think that we can help expedite the growth of the industry by forming these types of connections. Ah across and for us. It’s also included marketplaces folks who are helping to be a point of connection.
Ben Rubin
To to someone who might be wanting to buy carbon removal to help hit their net 0 pledges and then the the companies themselves who are who are you know who have those those carbon removal credits and they can sell.
James McWalter
I want I guess what about I guess ah, kind of carbon accounting companies and software where they’re basically going into often very very large fortune None companies and trying to measure the underlying carbon and they will often have some sort of ah you know offsetting. Ah, functionality built into their software would those also be a good candidate.
Ben Rubin
So Yes I I think they certainly could be for us. Generally you know, ah a litmus test is does The is a company early stage and and help fall into this category of and an innovator in the space which which tends to be early stage and growth companies and do they have. Either a full or part of their company that has a focus and emphasis on carbon management. There are some carbon accounting firms that might be squarely focused On. We’re measuring Scope 3 emissions of company but but there are others you know who are specifically thinking through where accounting for carbon removal and management comes into the mix and so I Think. The answer is yes there and and for us. Yeah, another litmus test is we were pleased when we rolled out that we released the ethical of to restore the earth for Us. We’re committed to both growing the carbon management industry economically but also responsibly and so we are looking as as members come on to. Sign on to this ethical oath or sortath similar to an ethical oath that doctor sign or lawyer sign we we are pleased to have our members supporting the responsible growth of the industry which you know includes affirming that removal should work in tandem with mitigation that is not a replacement to it and and some other tenins laid out in that oath.
James McWalter
Yeah, and I actually just have the oath up on the website and what well include that link in the show notes. Um, yeah, and and yeah, it’s pretty short but pretty comprehensive. It’s not None or None statements affirming the varying aspects of you know the carbon management industry as as you mentioned. And I guess when you’re kind of thinking through when you’re you know writing this and and partnering a folks to kind of get you know this list of None or None statements. Um I guess you know were there any predicted pieces that were more kind of debate worthy versus others.
Ben Rubin
Yeah, yeah, that’s a great question and we were fortunately able to workshop this with a wide set of stakeholders including startups in different groups in the space to get feedback I think what was great about it is there was broad-based alignment that there is a benefit to have the industry coalesce around a certain set. Standards to guide how the industry grows again invoking what lawyers have and and what doctors have when it came to carbon management it having this affirmation that removal is not replacement for mitigation for the carbon business council. We follow the the science in the ipcc science says that we need. Giga None of co 2 removed from the atmosphere but it does not say that that removal is a replacement to mitigation and so I think you know with an example like that there was fortunately a lot of alignment where these statements were. Great to have entshrined great to have written down great to have startups signing onto and affirming but largely you know they they made sense for folks to to back and stand behind.
James McWalter
So yeah, and the um you know, sorry just just so like a quick pause sometimes you slightly cut off a bit early Ben I I know you’re pausing but ah, you can give yourself ah like I guess a None after you finish talking.
Ben Rubin
So okay, great. Thanks James I will keep an eye on that when I meet myself and.
James McWalter
Ah, yeah, nowheres at all. Um, great and so you mentioned earlier that yeah this kind of focus on early stage companies and I mean that’s that’s partly due to the type of industry right? because it is such an early stage you know industry the idea of. Like a norri or you know director capture type technologies being deployed at scale. You know, even None maybe three years ago um was was pretty like surprising I think to a lot of folks and so you know things have come on in leaps and bounds over the last couple of years but I think one of the things that as you think about the growth of companies. Lot of startups that that I could interact with they don’t rethink too much about you know trade council councils as you go along from my own startup more the renewable energy space. We actually did did just recently sign up to one of the large scale solar energy. Um, you know trade organizations. Um, and it’s definitely not designed for. Companies of our size I would say and that’s fine. We like we are we are definitely getting value. Um, they’ have some good conferences all that kind of thing. Um, and so as you were kind of looking at other you know trade councils that are out there. Um and trying to build one that’s particularly beneficial to early stage companies who are generally fairly technologically advanced. I guess what were kind of things that you looked at and said okay we want to definitely incorporate these elements of other trade councils and we want to avoid these other ones.
Ben Rubin
Yeah that’s a great question James I think for us None of the goals is is as early stage companies know I mean time is one of the most precious commodities. There are so many time constraints when you’re getting a pilot up and running working on raising ah a seed round and so I think for us None of our goals was to. Work to be time additive for companies I think an example of that is something like tracking the latest policy developments or legislation floating or what is happening you know and in conversations that are taking place on Capitol Hill if we’re tracking that you know for for 1 carbon management company. We should be sharing and tracking that for more and that’s the type of thing that is saving a company time if if they can read our new see our digest and they don’t have to dedicate staff time to do that themselves I think it’s an example of how we want to try and fundamentally add time back into the day of startups and early stage companies and. Depending on where in the growth spectrum that company might be that might be actionable intelligence for them to want to engage in a policy conversation and and and have more substantial conversations. It might be something that they. Ah, fold into a pitch deck as they think about their business plan and and how they’re going ah to scale and grow and and nest this policy into their long-term business plans and so you know we startups might internalize take different steps based on the actionable info we provide to them but for us just generally. Time back in the day of companies was was a guiding principle for us recognizing the the time constraint that a lot of companies brought against and.
James McWalter
And going into that policy piece I think that’s a pretty meaty part of what any kind of trade association or trade council engages in and because this is again top of mind for anybody and. Industry right? like all people are thinking about the questions around measurement and verification and which technologies are moving faster or slower and how you price carbon and all these kind of things are just like very very yeah wealth developed in terms of underlying conversation. Um, but you know you mentioned Capitol Hill there’s been a year of ups and downs trying to get a climate bill through I mean just this week we did get a positive sign from senator Manchin but we’ll we’ll see you know I’m I’m not going I’ve been hurt before right? as we all have so I’m not going to kind of believe it until we kind of get to that point? Um, but as you think about you know some of those kind of larger legislative kind of movements.
Ben Rubin
I Think if he has if.
James McWalter
Um, how does the C O 2 bc see themselves or how are you kind of operating within that kind of larger you know climate bill framework.
Ben Rubin
Yeah, another good question James we want to bring fundamentally one of our primary goals is to bring innovators and strategiesups to the policy table because we think they’re so essential for bending that technology pass grid and helping us scale up to reach giga times scalele carbon management. We we want to make sure that they. Can be a resource to lawmakers to share information that that can be technical resources as well as understanding and and starting to hash out what types of policies are going to be advantageous for this tech neutral approach that can help startups to thrive and and grow and we’re seeing some of that in that. In that legislation that is being floated right now where there is just a breakthrough on if that passes some of the amendments to 45 q as an example, a tax credit where some of those amendments help more increase the eligibility where an additional set of companies working in carbon management can can be eligible and so. It’s examples like that where we’re pleased to see that the carbon business council as as an additional example of how we might engage or or the types of things we’re looking at we provided an endorsement to the bipartisan crest act and that is where we’re excited to see that that’s bipartisan. Climate legislation it it shows that there can that carbon management can be a bipartisan climate solution and we’re also pleased that it proposes expanding federal funding for multiple forms of carbon renewable again taking that tech neutral approach that we think is going to be so critical to help startups really scale and grow.
James McWalter
Yeah, it’s yeah know it’s like 700 pages of the bill were dumped this week and we actually like internally did do some reading of it. A lot of control fing like we didn’t actually like read anything close but but you know solar carbon. Um, you know these kind of terms that kind of see.
Ben Rubin
Yeah, yeah I.
James McWalter
Ah, how those things interact and I think one of the I guess somewhat hot topics when amongst at least some part of the environmentalist community. Um, which yeah is kind of surprising to me how this has become a hot topic but you know the. Use of carbon sequestration as some way of like maintaining. Um, yeah Fossil Fuel Dependence Now this is not something that I personally have much stock in I think that we need all of the above and then 10 X that to have any chance of really hitting these kind of longer term climate goals. Um, But how do you think about? you know some of those arguments that occur. Around ah carbon Sequestration Cc Us and and similar types of technologies as being things that potentially extend the runway of Fossil fuels and some of these other non-sustainable methods of fueling the economy.
Ben Rubin
Yeah, good question James I think for us that’s None reason why we think the ethical oath to restore the oath is so important that oath affirms that removal is not a replacement for the important work of mitigation and that ultimately can work in tandem with it and we see the issue you know as just that at that. Following the science that the ipcc has reached this conclusion that we’ve delayed reducing emissions for so long that that work of deep decarbonization continues to be more critical than ever and so many of the provisions in the inflationment inflation reduction act that was passed helped help get us there with electric vehicle tax credits. Renewable energy. So many of the other things that that it’s proposing of how we reduce emissions. But as we’re doing that removal also becomes this essential option and essential to be focusing on scaling it up today so that we can get to gigaton scale by the time that the ipcc models are showing that we need to be there and so. Ultimately I I think that it is a a yes and that it’s a working in tandem that we can have both and through one policy that the current business council supports is is net twin targets where in a net zero plan. We’re seeing how much someone is hitting net zero or net negative. Commitments through mitigation and how much someone is hitting it through carbon removal and so ultimately again, it’s that’s None example of how we can see this working in Tandem which is ultimately I think both what we’ll need. To stay within the goals of the Paris agreement and and what what can help ussuage concerns that removal is not a replacement for that important work of mitigation. So.
James McWalter
And you know we talked a little bit about the policy side of things. But then also you know the supply right? like the companies in that you work with those 40 odd companies they are providing a carbon removal or carbon. You know, carbon sequestration service of some sort and that’s you know the core product they’re building. But then you have on the demandd side. You know at the moment we do seem to have way more demand dens supply in terms of carbon removals and a lot of that has been led by ah rfps coming from the stripes and shopifys and Microsofts of the world. Um, and that I think has been a really powerful lever to ah kickstart this is like ah a nascent industry. Um, but not that many companies have done that right? We’re probably talking about none to a dozen companies who are buying up all of the you know quote unquote high-quality carbon sequest rated offsets over the last couple of years how do you think about how that’s going to evolve on the demand side. Um, I mean is it going to be world of marketplaces will individual members of of your council potentially start to build their own you know sales of marketing teams and they’re actually selling to the demand side directly? Um, yeah, any thoughts on that.
Ben Rubin
Yeah I Think how we can strengthen the business case for carbon Removal Offtake. It’s a great question and it’s going to be something that’s obviously vital to the success of the industry I Do think that we’re seeing some of the carbon removal happening through Marketplaces we’re seeing some carbon removal. Purchases happen through direct buys and we’re seeing you know the possibility that as we think about hitting Net zero targets that that obviously is going to be contingent on mitigation and reducing emissions but recognizing that that for that you know that that final mile or those. Um, hard to abate sectors in in ah in a net zero ah Pledge. That’s where carbon renewal will come into play and and we’re seeing that on both government side and private sector side and so I think as more plans are coming together for how they hit Net zero Targets. We will be seeing this increasing. Amount of recognition about where carbon removal and carbon management can come into mix.
James McWalter
And yeah, on that. So yeah, one of the things when I started looking into. Yeah the carbon space when I was looking at different ideas for my next kind of startup and again ended up going in in the clean energy space but went pretty deep on carbon offsets and all the varying technologies. Um, for about None to None months and. 1 of the things I I was kind of quite surprised by was there was this like massive existing industry of what’s called renewable energy credits or Rex that are traded mostly in California Canada and in the Eu and it’s what’s called like regulatory market for carbon. But it is in that this particular case dependent on renewable energy and then they have what. What are called the voluntary carbon market which is when an individual or like an entity will say I’m going to offset my carbon in a particular way I’m not actually required by anyone to do that I just want to you know either give directly back in a positive way. Ah, you know like a company like Microsoft right? who is committed to completely removing all the carbon. It’s ever emitted in the history of the company. Um, that’s not done for business reasons I don’t think that’s tiredly done through you know the kind of ethical reasoning of the internal company itself. Um, but. What you’re also seeing is people using offsets as a way to grow market share or retain talent and all these kind of things. Um, but that voluntary market is still very very small How do you think about how the voluntary market could potentially become a regulated market because the regulated market for Rex is absolutely. Massive I think it’s hundreds or none of x what the voluntary market is today. Um, can we you know will waste to have a voluntary market for the next 5 to 10 years and or should we be trying to get a regulated government run or state run market in carbon. Sequested credits as quickly as possible.
Ben Rubin
Yeah, good question James and I do think as we’re thinking about how to create business models for carbon removable. You’re you’re certainly thinking of something important with voluntary carbon markets. The carbon business council currently has a working group on voluntary carbon markets will be publishing a white paper in September with recommendations for how. Voluntary carbon markets can be strengthened to include more carbon removal options within those markets and for both I think in those voluntary carbon markets. There are open questions that you’re touching on around a common set of definitions. How to ensure verification. Removals that are entering into voluntary carbon markets. How to also ensure that that verification process is is somewhat streamlined so recognizing that voluntary carbon markets will continue to be here for the foreseeable future. We. We do think it’s important to strengthen and optimize those markets. Has been. It is encouraging to see some of the cases in the us in California with the low carbon fuel standard and some of the work that California Air Resources Board is moving forward some of the work happening in the eu with regulated markets that there’s growing possibilities on both the regulated. Market and the voluntary carbon market side of thing to help carbon removal scal up and grow.
James McWalter
Yeah, it’s It’s kind of like you know, especially large organizations right? They want a number and then they can build processes around that number and the more regulated that number is the more they’re likely to build the internal processes and so on to actually meet that. So. But that all makes a ton of sense. Um, one of the things I was looking through your website and kind of trying to better get but better understanding as I came across the institute for carbon removal law and policy which I believe is out of American University Um, could you speak? Ah, a bit to how um. That institute kind of interacts with COTwo bc.
Ben Rubin
Yeah, the institute for carbon and law policy is there. They are house head of American University and they are a wealth of resources for things on carbon remov have a lot of great explainers and None pages and reports on their website I am a research fellow with the institute. So. There’s. You know the line is open with them to think through. Are there research gaps within the carbon removal ecosystem that we should be thinking through and so that is a so have have a line open with them in that capacity and and they’re a partner of the carbon visits to come to working with them and and would encourage folks if if anyone’s not familiar with them to check out their website to read up on. Some of these just great. You know, different explainers 1 ne-pars of the resources they’re providing on what is direct air capture what is ocean-based Cdr and just some of those great resources out there. You know in the public domain to to bulk up knowledge around these complex issues and.
James McWalter
And what are the artor research gaps like where where would you love to see smart people doing more research in the space.
Ben Rubin
Yeah, yeah, there are certainly many research gaps within the the carbon remable ecosystem and I think that. And and they’re important to solve they’re they’re important to answer and I think it speaks to where there’s an opportunity for startups in early stage companies to be a resource for some of the research as it takes place. But there’s both the open research questions around hard tech. How can we lower the cost of certain carbon Removal technologies and and make them more affordable. There’s research questions around. Governance so that we can ensure that carbon Removal does scale up responsibly and and what that looks like what what the most beneficial forms of community engagement will look like when projects are being cited and built out and then there are research questions around what is that best verification system for voluntary carbon markets that is both. Rigorous but streamlined and so there there’s a host of of research and open questions to answer I think across different disciplines and I think. 1 that continues to be important is the the ipcc has a firm time and time again in multiple reports now the importance of carbon removable but continuing to understand how much carbon removable we need when that is obviously you know an underlying part of it that that helps underpin. How much carbon removal Are we talking about where the startups need to be going and and there’s similar alignment between different models that are being run by the ipcc or the international energy agency. But just again these wealth of open research issues. We’re pleased to see that startups can move forward on R and D on scaling up for projects on bringing projects to Market. As these important research questions are answered and addressed.
James McWalter
And I guess some of that research also intersects with the capital side of things. So there’s been a pretty decent amount of venture capital in particular going into ah carbon focused startups over the last two years and I’m talking a few of those vcs I’ve also talked to a few. Yeah, those kind of carbon startups and one of the things that sometimes there’s a bit of a struggle with especially on the vcc side is they often don’t have the ability in-house to confirm the science and so you’ll sometimes have something that’s like it makes sense right? So ah like there is an intuitive grasp of of the concept. But then in other cases, it’s like okay does this even work right? And so I think about things like enhanced weathering which is this kind of absolutely fascinating type of carbon squistering technology. Um, but yeah, I’m personally never done the research into understanding how it might scale what it might take. Ah, how much it sequesters relative to other you know, use cases all those kind of things and so how do you think about how startups can better. You know communicate ah display research chops and so on to investors who often will only give maybe None to 3 hours before they make a None figure decision on on a. Given startups investment.
Ben Rubin
I yeah I do it’s a great question and I think this speaks to efforts that are taking place right now to reach commonality around measurement reporting and verification and mrv having a clear set of standards in place for what. What we’re talking about how can we measure the CO o two how can we verify that that co 2 is be removed having those types of methodologies will be so important but that is obviously an immense and complex question to answer recognizing that There’s so many forms. Of carbon removal out there from enhanced weathering like you’re talking about to direct air capture to ocean-based carbon removal and in many other forms of it. What does that and mrrv look like but but moving forward on that having having data available that’s showing what what carbon removal is working what lessons are being learned. That will ultimately help to strengthen the industry and ensure that we are continuing to March towards this gigaton scale removal by 2030.
James McWalter
I Yeah, the M Mrv question is absolutely fascinating to me because because there’s so little emva ah particularly across certain types of carbon Removal technologies and generally those carbon startups are the carbon removal startups are like the most. Up-to-date cutting edge companies to do the actual measurement as well. But then you kind of get into a world where are we vertically integrating the sequestration the measurement and the price setting. Yeah the market piece which a few companies have done I could be understand why those companies have done that and I think it’s been so far. Net Positive. Do think as we get larger. There’s going to be have to be this role for independent and Mrv or ideally startups companies. Um, who are you know they are actually making money on the basis of the accuracy of their estimates um versus having all these things necessarily vertically integrated all with in the same company.
Ben Rubin
Yeah, yeah, I think that what’s great is how many bright minds are actively thinking through these complex issues right now around Mrb and and thinking through the different business cases if it will be vertically integrated within companies if it will be outside and and I think it’s it’s great to see how. Just how this is evolving I think there’s increasing recognition across the board that the sooner we can have good and and clear and streamlined sets of agreement around what and Mrb is going to look like the the faster or not the faster but but the faster and stronger we’ll be able to help scale up. Carbon management and.
James McWalter
Absolutely and then I guess the other piece is ah because we were talked a little bit about the the kind of capital side. So there aspects so some um startups make sense for certain type of funding and like the classic you know, quotequote software startup Silicon Valley company um yeah has tends to have pretty high margins right? So 70% plus margins they tend to be very very software based so low capital costs. Um, most of the costs are in the people themselves and that venture model is also built around lots and lots of bets and only if few shoot to the moon and the rest generally fail. And 1 of the things I think that as I look at climate tech in general and I think carbon removal and carbon sequeration companies are definitely part of this. We definitely need lots and lots of bets but often the technology and the novel use of a technology is contained within a single company. And if that company for whatever reason then most startups fail does fail. How does that affect actually that technology being set back for that particular you know direction versus just that company not working out for all to none of reasons those startups don’t work out and so one of the things I’ve been thinking and talking to a few folks about is what are other. You know capital allocation or capital. Um, you know investment structures that might make more sense for companies in climate tech versus traditional Vc and you know you have project financing. You have various types of debt instruments and so on. How do you think about the current landscape you know is it fit for purpose for carbon removal companies carbon secoration companies or do we need to start getting a bit innovative over the financing model itself.
Ben Rubin
Yeah, it’s a great question and obviously financing is such an important nut to crack for how startups can have the resources that they need to help hit Gigaton Scale. It’s been encouraging to see private investment coming into space both through vcs and also some of the corporates you were mentioning who are. We’re buying carbon removal to help scale and grow the industry. What the frontier fund is doing essentially with a model of advanced Market commitments a similar model that was used for vaccines for Covid Nineteen is another great way to help grow the industry and in addition to these private sector Dollars. We are seeing support from the government to help. Support research of technologies that’s coming through the department of energy through Arpa E and so it is also great to see the government investing in research to help answer some of these complex questions about again. How can we expedite the pathway to get to durable and strong carbon removal by 2030.
James McWalter
And if I think you know back to the C O 2 bc um, what are your kind of aims over the next year or 2
Ben Rubin
Yeah, well we are. We are excited to grow as the industry grows and so we’ve we’ve had many companies reaching out to us about joining the team and so excited to be expanding and and bringing out new members in the weeks and months ahead 1 of our central goals is to be bringing startups to the policy table and so we will be doing just that over the next several months attempting to weigh in and inform policies that can help startups to to scale grow and thrive. And in the process we will also be working to ensure again that carbon removal not only grows economically but also responsibly and so that will mean continuing to elevate and lift up that ethical oath to restore the earth and thinking through what responsible growth of the carbon management industry will be looking like.
James McWalter
And and then if I think about the the space. You know you have your 40 or so members today but we need um like lots more right um you if if some kind of smart potential founder early team member of ah of ah, an early stage startup is listening to this. We’re areas of innovation that we just need a lot more people building um, are there specific areas that are underrepresentative within the carbon removal space.
Ben Rubin
Yeah that’s a great question I think what’s encouraging about carbon removal right now is this idea and and this isn’t trend I think in the energy department’s carbon negative shop where they’ve set a goal to help have carbon removal happen at $100 a ton or less. By a certain year and and that is taking this tech neutral approach that’s emblematic of the carbon business council as well recognizing that there are multiple pathways that we can get there one. Great resource that I would point out is that lower carbon vc firm in the space who invests in carbon removal startups. Just put out a blog post recently highlighting some emerging forms of carbon removal that they are interested in funding and supporting and some of these you know are are probably newer news for folks who if they’re even if they’re tracking carbon removal conversations I think it shows how many promising forms of removal. Investors are looking to fund that might be scaling up and and it’s for you know a reason like that that we’re pleased to be taking this tech neutral approach where we are excited to see in the next few years are there breakaway solutions but we think right now at this juncction 2022 it would be premature to say you know that that one solution is going to be more successful over another than.
James McWalter
Yeah I think there needs to be a lot more kind of cross-pollination of talent between I guess conventional or traditional. Um you know, software and hardware startups and people who are in the labs developing these technologies um actually run a climate meetup in in New York City and it’s been kind of remarkable meeting some amazing research scientists out of Columbia University in particular who are working on carbon sequestration technologies and they’re like can I start a startup and and like and then they’re like talking to people who are you know, putting together ah like a slack competitor you know Zoom and they’re like oh these guys don’t know anything they’re like building a startup. It’s like oh. Yeah, you are one of the foremost domain experts in the world about this type of carbon sequestration carbon removal um, you absolutely can be building a startup if if you so wish and I think having more folks who are in that kind of startup world about trying to. Build at scale are interacting with people who actually know the science in a really deep way means we’ll start to get the best about worlds.
Ben Rubin
I But totally agree with that I think creating those types of points of connection and synergy can really help to unlock and accelerate the growth and.
James McWalter
I and just before we finish up and you know you’ve been working on the C O Two bc for a little while now. Um, what’s been most surprising that you found since since joining the and setting up the C O Two bc
Ben Rubin
So yeah, That’s a great question I Think what’s been most surprising I think really just seeing the the dedication that innovators or founders and companies have that they’re bringing into the carbon management ecosystem has been.. It’s been delightful surprising and inspiring to see we have some successful serial entrepreneurs who have started multiple successful companies not necessary and in climate who are now coming to climate but just seeing the level of talent and dedication being focused on this issue. It’s it’s encouraging to see. And it’s it’s ah it’s a pleasant surprise that so many people are are following this ipcc science and working the ride to the occasion. It is a tough nut to crack about what it will take to get to Gigaton Scale Removal by 2030. We think that innovators are are the ones who are going to be positioned to lead the way and help get us there and and it’s it’s great. To see them rising to that challenge and rising to that occasion and.
James McWalter
Yeah I Always tell people who are like pessimistic about our climate future to say if you want to feel a bit more optimistic every day directly work on these problems. Um, yeah I was kind of like in a bit of a funk about all these things and then actually sort of working on it and you know so far haven’t actually had a. Yeah, the profound effect on the climate that we all hope to have but just by working through the problem trying to improve every day. It actually has a massive. You know, positive kind of internal effect as Well. And so I think yeah for anyone listening to this who does feel ah you know, maybe a bit of despair a bit of hopelessness. Like actually working on these things in any place right? It could be a startup. It could be on the policy side Activism Whatever it may be is actually I think the number way to start feeling more optimistic and feeling like you’re making some positive progress.
Ben Rubin
I fully agree with that James yeah I think it’s encouraging to see what strives to do and and exactly what you’re hitting on. It’s to solve climate change. It will take multiple folks working on multiple issues whether it is on that policy side or some of those other areas you’re talking about. so so yeah doubling down that.
James McWalter
Yeah Ben it’s absolutely great and chatting and really enjoyed the conversation before we finish off is there anything I should have asked you about but did not.
Ben Rubin
So yeah, good question James I would say if folks are interested in hearing more about the carbon business council just that they can go to http://carbonbusinessconunsel.org to learn more. We put out a biweekly newsletter with updates and Intel happening in the space so would invite folks to sign up for that. But also invite folks working in carbon management to take a close look at the ethical oath to restore the earth signatures are not limited to members only we think it’s important to have multiple folks sign on to this ethical oath and so I just invite folks listening who are. Also thinking about carbon management also thinking about what it means to grow responsibly to to take a look at that and consider signing can be a good fit for them and.
James McWalter
So I will include the link to the oath and those other links in the show notes. Thank you ben.
Ben Rubin
Thanks, excellent! Thanks so much James thank much.