This is a slightly different episode, where I chatted with Charles Bai, CTO and cofounder of my startup Paces! Paces provides actionable data and analytics for green infrastructure developers, operators, and investors to understand what and where to profitably build. We discussed how On Deck was central to us finding a cofounder, why we are passionate about changing the built environment to be more climate positive, advice on startup fundraising and more! 

Do you know any solar, wind, battery storage, hydrogen or EV charging developers? Let us know at team@paces.ai thanks!

https://carbotnic.com/paces

Download Podcast Here: https://plinkhq.com/i/1518148418

The unedited podcast transcript is below

James McWalter

Today I’m speaking with Charles by CTO of paces and my co-founder welcome to podcast Charles.

Charles

Thank you James excited to be here.

James McWalter

Brilliant I Guess to start could you tell us a little bit about yourself where you’re from I Guess your whole story.

Charles

Absolutely so I’m originally from China born raised in Beijing went to Cornell For Undergrad so Dc as and also easyc there worked on a couple of startups and ideas and in the past three years I been on Facebook ai. Um, effort first was mainly around Ai product and then I moved more towards infrastructure where I work on sustainable AiEff efficiency and optimizations and large model inference. Um, and.

James McWalter

And just yeah, so I guess what is sustainable Ai.

Charles

Yeah, so so same but ai is is actually a very interesting space. Basically you know in the past couple years a models has grown exponentially large and you know training a models doing a model inference and are not going to be That’s cheap anymore and it consumes a lot of power uses all of Gpus and a lot of observers at the same time is becoming a lot dirtier so training a model can cause a lot of carbon emissions. So part of the work. We’ve been doing at Facebook is. Sort of meing the power and carbon footprint of ammodals from training to inference and see how we can make them greener.

James McWalter

And is that why you joined um on deck and I guess could you tell us a little bit about um what on deck is and you know it’s obviously very central to how we match. But yeah I’d love to hear the kind of thought process for why you joined on deck. So.

Charles

Ah, hundred percent yeah um I was I I was also on deck was actually introduced by 1 of my friend who I’ve been talking to. He also went to Cornell and we’ve been bouncing ideas around the ai space and. one day I song to him I was like oh man I you know I wish I could meet more people meet more likeminded people and he says he joined on deck after he worked at Facebook and then Google and he said it was a great experience. He met a lot of. Like mine and people there want to start companies and he quit his full-time job after that so he suggested me to apply to it to be honest by the time that I apply to it I didn’t know too much about the program. But um, yeah I just went through the whole process. Also. Talk to some ondack alumnis and found out that whole community is great. So that’s how I joined.

James McWalter

Yeah, brilliant. Yeah um, and actually Charles if you could like you then ask me that the next question so you know so you could be something like oh that was my onduck experience. You see what I mean. So yeah, good.

Charles

Um, ah yeah, that was um, that was my on that experience remind me why you joined on that games.

James McWalter

Yeah I mean probably not super dissimilar so you know I think I’ve mentioned on the podcast in the past that I was living down in Mexico waiting on a rather protracted green cardd situation to resolve itself eventually that did but what I was down there I was working at a company called respondent. Um. Remote first company doing some cool things. Um, but wasn’t really anything to do with climate or kind of impact that I really wanted to have with my kind of next role so Leftft responded and started just playing around with a lot of ideas in the climate space started this podcast and. The opportunity came to apply for ondeck and so I applied for on deck because I didn’t have a cofounder and I was like you know I’m very very very minorly technical in terms of coding something quite terrible together. But like you know I definitely haven’t somebody technical enough to build real product. So I basically joined on deck to find a cofounder. And um I applied and I was rejected for the first the first time and then um about two months later I got an email saying oh you’ve been accepted into the the next round of the next cohort. So I joined you know as 100 % remote company a remote first cohort it was I think the last on that cohort where. Weren’t any other types of cohorts. Everybody was a founder and I joined working on a idea around Sms Chatbots aimed at farmers to try to make them more climate friendly and to offer them advice at various points in their kind of yeah farming process and so I kind of worked on that for a few months um that’s why and I joined on deck I was talking to lots of people trying to convince them to to that. This is a good idea to work on and yeah in the end I decided that it was a tough space and so you know I guess the immediate appeal of things like regenerative ag from a client point of view is that. For me at least because I come from a farming background I got the space pretty quickly. Um I think the struggle was that things move very very slowly within agriculture. It’s a very very socially driven industry right? So it’s even if there’s better technology. You also have to convince. Lots and lots and lots of farmers to adopt that new technology and that is actually a really tough problem. It’s nearly closer to being a you know b to c type space rather than a b two b space and so you know after working on it I actually built ah a product I had it in market was a very large Ag business was actually trialing it. But I kind of decided that it wasn’t really the direction I wanted to go and so became at that point really really interested in clean energy and clean transportation and a lot of the kind of big issues in that space. Um, and yeah and so I was like okay, let’s just start talking to lots and lots of people who are working on.

James McWalter

The massive deployment of solar and wind and Ev charging stations and hydrogen refuelling stations and all those cool things and seeing you know why aren’t we building that fast enough you know is it a money issue is it a technology issue is it something else and those I guess the genesis for the direction that ended up becoming paces.

Charles

Awesome! Thanks for sharing.

James McWalter

Yeah, and I guess you know I know you were um, you know so you went into on deck and I think you were wanting to do something with the sustainable Ai idea was that the kind of original project. You wanted to work on there.

Charles

Yeah, so I was I was thinking sort of I was sort of brainstorming this idea of making Ai greener as a whole because you know if we see this problem at Facebook you know there. There are also probably some other organizations or entities where’s seeing sort of this. The same problem. Um, and I’ve been talking to some people around it as well. But later I was sort of more drawn to to clean energy and some of the these other verticals or industries that are much stier than technology because. Ah, technology industry as a whole is is pretty clean compared to some of the other ones like rose state or or energy. So so that’s when I decided. Okay, you know it’s it’s better for me to work on something that emits a lot more and that that emits a little bit more. Mission compared to technology Industry. So That’s why I was looking to real estate and and renewable energy and things like that.

James McWalter

So yeah, it’s interesting and I guess at the same time as when you and I started talking to each other last summer I was going through a very similar journey and doing all these different user interviews with solar and wind project developers and there was this kind of remarkable moment I remember quite well where I was talking to a particular solar developer. And they said that only 1 in 5 of the these big hundred million dollar solar projects they work on actually ends up getting built and that the rest fail for various reasons and I was like so shocked by this number that I was like convinced that this particular developer was just bad at their job and I was like oh you know because I didn’t know the space that well and I was like oh.

Like so I need to like talk to other people and I started talking to other people and I know you were talking to other people and we just kept hearing this one in 5 success rate and and at the same time there’s like tens of billions of private money and public money like sitting on the sidelines waiting to be deploy to build these things so it’s not not a financing issue. And that became like I guess a little bit of an obsession for for us. Both this idea that there is all this money to be spent on clean energy, clean transportation green buildings and so on but we’re just not successfully executing on that in the level and the velocity that we need. Um, so yeah, so it became you know something of ah I guess an obsession and you and I were like oh maybe we we should be kind of founders together. Um, and I guess like you know when we were kind of chatting what what was the thing that convinced you that this was the the idea to move forward on. So.

Charles

Yeah, so I guess there are 2 things so one is you know this industry is is very dirty. So I really think that you know a lot of the technology is already there but deployment is is a big issue right now and we’re just simply not. Building fast enough and deploying fast enough and the second is I think this industry right now along with some of these other climate industries or other verticals within the climate industry is very data hungry and a lot of the problems that they’re facing today can really be solved with. Better data and better analytics and they’re not really used to this sort of process of having data and having insights actionable insights to help solve their problem. So I think these two are sort of the main. Ah, reasons why I think that you know this is a a good idea that we should go for and also we after we talk to you know potential customers and we sign an l I and I think by that time we know that you know we’re we’re on the right track.

James McWalter

 so I guess yeah so I guess when you know it was like signing that letter of a tent. Yeah, having those conversations. Um it was kind of amazing how kind of quickly moved you know as a matter of a few months that we kind of went from like deciding to move forward together to you know. Saying okay, this is something that could maybe be fundable. They could maybe have other customers interested in all that kind of thing and so I think I guess my main message is like once you kind of know you really do know and having like a high degree of velocity to your decision making is like super important.

Charles

So ah, hundred percent um yeah so you you spoke to a lot of different peoples. You know, actually looking for cofounders that you’re you’re mentioning when you’re on deck and what’s your process like.

James McWalter

It? yeah, it’s it’s’s super interesting and obviously you know it’s worked out well here but like I would love for people who are listening to this who are kind of going through a summer process and trying to say you know who should I found something with um it I definitely interacted with well over a hundred people maybe close to 150 people in. Yeah, the previous 2 years went to the level of like you know having you know one day work sessions with a couple of people. Um, there’s a list of 50 questions to ask your cofounder that does the rounds comes out of first round capital um went through that process with ah with a few people. And I think like the biggest thing was that I was so structured with the approach and I think I was potentially too structured with the approach because like I you know I was like oh some people it seemed like a good fit. But I think I was so structured I kind of missed the probably what was the most important thing for at least for me and like. In a way that like can kind of get something up and running is like a bias towards building because I was looking for somebody who’s technical I talked to again a ton of technical folk who are just to the person like an incredible you know, engineer or data scientist or whatever you know that technical skill set. But. Not everybody had like a massive bias towards like building right? like a lot of people wanted to talk about things but a lot of people wanted to ah you know, um, like like change idea constantly. You know there’s lots lots of different things. Um and some of those like I learned a ton from like all that process. But I guess charles when when you and I met and like I could see that you were. Kind of looking at these kind of working on these like side hackathons. You know here and there and like just talking to tons of people and just being super active in like the building community. It was not like bias towards action that I was like oh this is the thing I should always have been indexing on in my search and I guess like that’s like the main message I had like you know your process you should have some sort of process. Of course. But like really identifying that the main thing that will work with trying to get something from 0 to one and to me I think like the velocity of building and the bias towards action like those are like the most important things and also of course you need to you know you need to vibe you you know you need to be able to disagree in a kind way. You need to have all those other elements that are kind of interpersonal. Um, but I guess you know what? what are your kind of thoughts on on how your search went well.

Charles

Ah, hundred percent um I think I think for me is is also kind of similar you know, um I I think um, we both let share sort of this. Spies towards action. We really want to build something I really and we also really want to build something that changed the physical world. We think that you know, um, there’s they’re just simply not enough companies who are especially climate companies to sort of doing things that like shape the physical world and we really. Have that bias towards helping other companies rather developers to build faster and we just want to help mitigate the climate issue and the entire sort of situation right now as as fast as possible. Um.

James McWalter

And and to do that we’re we’re working on an Mvp getting getting some sort of product. How is that going you. You’re doing 99% of the building. So what’s that process like been for you.

Charles

Yeah, so it’s it’s been great I mean we so right now we’re we’re building and mep to to have this. Basically it’s a jazz tool to to help right now specifically targeting developers to help them find better size to build their. Gray infrastructure to basically provide them these deep due digons data up in front so that they won’t build something and in couple months they found out that oh you know we can’t build here because of this reason for that reason. Want to surface all these data up in front and tell them basically give them these analytics and allow them to make better decisions and um, yeah, we build a we build a demo. We are currently iterating our and Mvp with. Our ouri signers and also our design partners and things are going great. We are integrating a lot of data and we are also providing analytics on top of the data. And by the end of this month I hope that we can actually let me redo that part. Ah and by the end of next month I hope that we can have the V 0 mvp build so that we can actually start piloting with some of the.

James McWalter

It Yeah, it’s so exciting. You know, like because sometimes especially as we’ve kind of gone through things like fundraising and so on you know and I’ll spend a lot of my time talking to investors and then like a week might go by before I talk to our design partners and the other people who are interested in in the product we’re building.

Charles

Potential customers.

James McWalter

And all of a sudden I talk to them and like it just gets so exciting to see how their eyes light up when we show them. You know a sketch like ah you know a design sketch or we show them the progress you’ve made charles in in the kind of and Mvp construction and they’re like oh that feature is a 5 out of 5 value or that feature. A 4 out of 5 or even that feature is a 2 out of 5 and we know that we shouldn’t be prioritizing that type of feature for a specific user set like all of that kind of constant feedback. You know is has been so valuable and and honestly having you know, tried and failed with different startups in the past I think my biggest lesson having done done this a little bit in the past with with as I said less successful efforts. Is that we built more product than we validated by the market and this time around like having those kind of close relationships and having basically the user drive the process and for us then to bring you know that data awareness that ah you know that that analytics and ml awareness. Software awareness to actually then craft that into like a world-class product like that’s like the really exciting thing that you know that there’s basically we tried to dramatically reduce the chance that we build something that nobody wants like at least these users you talk to every week at least? Ah, they’ll might use. It.

Charles

Hundred percent I really think that you know, especially building a product like this iterating with the customers interacting with them and really making sure that you’re building something that they want is very very important. Um, yeah, and yeah, we have also been fundraising could do. We have done anything better when we seen you know our prec round.

James McWalter

Yeah, so we’re we’re just about done raising our preeed and we we got into kind of just just north of 7 figures. Um, and honestly like having never yeah, really raised directly in the past for myself or I think for both of us. Um, it was definitely learning experience for us. It went. Looking back shockingly quick. Um, looking forward. You know part of me was like it might take two weeks and then it takes a few months or a couple months and even that is very fast for a lot of you know, relative to like a lot of people who I’m sure listening to this and like kind of going through their process I would love to say just like. Give people a sense of numbers like we engaged about 400 investors had 66 first meetings and close 10 investors and so you know it’s definitely like a numbers game. Um, and I think coming from ah a sales background for for myself. Yeah, you. I was kind of going into it like expecting just a lot of Nos and a lot of rejection. Um, but that doesn’t make mean it’s like trivial right? Um, even when we would get the first couple of checks in from some really great angels. Um, yeah, so basically like there was nothing for the first week or two then we got a couple of angel checks in in week three and then like a week went by. Before we got at something else and like a week sounds like nothing but when you’re kind of in it and you’ve just had 2 angel checks. You’re like oh where’s the next one and like you’re also seeing you know, maybe 7 to 8 nos a day every day as you’re kind of going through that and a lot of them are like not direct Nos but like non-responses or you know people who seemed like. They were very excited and they just kind of fall off the Map. Um, so you know if I think about the um things we could have done better so you know one of the things we we definitely didn’t I guess appreciate was that how much better you get the more meetings you have um I think we were just bad for the first like 20 meetings like just just plainly. Didn’t really have good answers for a lot of things and so I think that because we didn’t really realize that you’re just so bad for the first 20 meetings. Um those some of those meetings were like you know you felt worse coming off those meetings than than you might have. And so I think like the big, the big lesson for that is like for any future time. It’s like just get the first 20 meetings done even if they’re not ideal investors because you learn so much from those you know and by the time you’ve hit twenty thirty forty meetings you’ve heard every question you’ve heard every potential issue and you should have good answers for that. And so you know people would ask us about the total addressable market. You know how big a market are we tackling they would ask us things around you know how do we reach our customers. They would ask us things about data collection. The defensibility of our remote. All those things that we had a pretty okay idea of um and.

James McWalter

We could like articulate yeah charles and high talking to each other maybe for you know a if we had like ah just an hour long conversation but in a kind of pitch conversation. You’re trying to get that idea across in like 1 minute per question and you’re just not good at for a while and so I think that’s the biggest thing it’s like just just. Lots of practice and no no practices as good as the actual pitch itself and so put yourselves out there and I wish we’d done that a little bit more. But yeah, overall like I’m I’m pretty pretty damn happy with how it all went to be honest, anything you think we should have approved charles and yourside. Yeah.

Charles

No I think I think overall we we did great. It’s also our first time so we definitely got. We definitely got let me redo this um, let me think of a little bit first. Um. What are the things that.

James McWalter

You You could talk about how we we gave lots of updates to throughout and we continue to make progress on the company like we sign an extra alloy and that kind of thing So you you.

Charles

Yeah I can I can talk about maybe the continuous momentum and everything um, cool. Yeah, so I think this you know this is also my first time as well. So I think both does we. We don’t really have a lot of experiences but. I think one one thing we did pretty well and is to basically show the momentum have continuous sort of updates with with the potential investors who’s interested in investing so we had we initially had 1 our eyes and one li and then we. We basically signed another one a couple weeks later and we are also continuously to build out the and mbap the demo and everything and we also took design partners on board. So showing really showing this momentum of growing and you know. Having more customers more more product build is is pretty critical for us to have a ah good race.

James McWalter

Absolutely and and that momentum I think has continued even like in our personal lives and so on I think we’re boat moving apartment over the next few weeks you are I believe moving country you are moving across the country and so you know like how has been like all those kind of you know, balancing. Those kind of personal things while trying to make progress on you know, a fastoving startup than for you.

Charles

Yeah, so moving moving is always Stressful. You know across country moving is is even worse I would say definitely I would say you know take your time. Don’t stress too much about It. You know there are a lot of moving pieces try to manage all of them and. Um, try to have dedicated time on you know, handling your personal Stuff. Don’t don’t spend your entire time on Building. You know the the startup and save some time for yourself and forget all the operational tasks and Logistic takes These are very important as well. So yeah, So so I would I would say that you know have dedicated time to handle all these moving pieces. So.

James McWalter

And I guess once we’re you’re you’re settled in New York um you know we we’ve just set up ourselves like ah, a little office space in Brooklyn we’ll be starting kind of working in there in a few weeks but I guess. You know how do you think about? what what you want us to achieve over the next couple of months like what are our kind of short-term muscles in your mind.

Charles

Yeah, so I think you know on the on the product side. Definitely we want to build a Mvp v zero and then continue to iterate that with the users that means like connecting a lot of the data we collected deployed the data and then making sure that the users can consume these data. And insights through the web app so that is the main thing I would say as sort of the immediate next step and and also at the same time kind of you know, build out more data sets collect more data that are. And be useful for for for customers.

James McWalter

Yeah, absolutely so like you know I echo that um just on the data point. Yeah, so we’re you know we’re collecting zoning data. We’re collecting permitting data. We’re collecting interconnection into the grid data to re try to you identify like good places to build but you can’t do the whole country. You know in day one so you know there are. Like over 3000 counties and jurisdictions in the United States and so you know you have to kind of prioritize for a certain extent and that you know that is ah like always the balance right? because if you had national coverage that you definitely be of a value. But how do you actually get an mvp like an actual true Mvp. Like can you get like 10 counties or even one county worth of data that is actually valuable to some users and then you kind of build out rather than yeah spending months and months of data collection and then ending up that oh nobody actually cared about that data and then theater bit. You know I can’t wait for the first dollar of revenue that is ah that’s going to be. You know a lovely milestone you know I think been in having been in fundraising now for a few months and you know you hit like your fundraising number and people are obviously very congratulatory. Yeah in your kind of personal circle and that’s obviously like a great moment to hit those numbers because a lot of people don’t and so you know we feel obviously very kind of. Proud of of that and and very kind of fortunate and humble about it. But it’s like okay you know you raise money to build a business and you build a business by growth and revenue and all those kind of elements and the most important metric of all I guess is the actual climate effect and so yeah, so I’m I absolutely like super excited over like the next few months because we can completely focus on the business. You know. Building product getting in front of users hopefully getting them to pay us. You know a few Bob a few dollars and and then kind of continue to iterate from there.

Charles

That’s great. So these are sort of our short term aim you know and what how do you see? what paces that can be over the next few years

James McWalter

Yeah I mean I think this is like 1 of our you know shared views is that um, when you kind of think about the scale of climate change and like all the kind of associated problems. We really have to kind of completely rebuild the built environment over the next few decades right? Like if you look out across the world. You have. You know coal-fired power plants. You have ah gas cuzzling vehicles you have ah you know buildings who aren’t very very well insulated and you know this combination of factors is just very very high in terms of like carbon emissions and so basically we’re going to have to change all of that and we’re already starting to see it. Um, as we mentioned that there is a ton of funding for from it for this kind of transition both from the public and private sector and more is needed but at least for the next couple of years. The money is is available. Um, but really, it’s like the transformational nature of the built environment is going to be I think catch a lot of people by surprise. Um. You know we’ve had a particular type of city and kind of suburban world over the last hundred years um throughout the western kind of western society and also you know large parts of the rest of the world and that’s going to start to shift in various ways and ways that are not really predictable. You know one example is as you kind of have a more distributed energy grid. Um, that changes the types of businesses you can have the types of communities. You can have um as we move into much greener buildings. Um, that also changes the types of ways that people live and then transportation you know I don’t think people realize how much quieter and and kind of more enjoyable. It will be to be in cities when all vehicles are evs or hydrogen powered. It’s just going to be like a profoundly different and you know more kind of positive way to live and so obviously there’s a lot of doo and gloom in the climate world. But we’re super excited by um, yeah, the potential change that’s coming and how it like paces and and what we’re building can kind of speed that up and enable. You know the. Climate optimum use case for like all the world’s land and so yeah I guess like what’s exciting you about ah our future kind of vision and mission charles. Yeah.

Charles

Yeah I think for me is I really want to see all these you know big changes in the physical world I think that’s that’s what drives me to to work on on paces as well. I really want to see you know all these new renewable energy. You know sites getting built and you know one day I really want to visit some of them myself as well. And yeah, and also the transfer. Ah the transformation of the cities that you just mentioned I think it’s also very exciting for me. Um I think. You know, climate to be honest, like climate this this climate people as a whole. Um we don’t really make a very good. Um, you know, um, illustration of the future. Basically all of them. All of us are sort of saying that you know things are going to go bad and if you don’t make changes. We go even worse. But really we believe that there’s and there’s another way out right? and this things can be a lot greener. We can see vertical farms. All these cool new. Um. Cool news sites in the in the city and imagine everyone drivinging ev and were hydrogen you know powered cars instead of gasolineing power cars and things are going to be a lot quieter. So there’s I think there’s this alternative sort of 2 chair that we can build and is is. Ah, lock reer and is a lot nicer. So I’m very excited about that.

James McWalter

Yeah, no, Ah, absolutely. And and I guess like thinking about the kind of wider like scale of Innovation. You know we we both kind of have orbited different type of climate communities on a lot of tech Folk. You know if you were somebody kind of listening to this and and they were kind of inspired by what we’re talking about. They want to kind of start their own thing or work On. You know some cool new Idea. You know what are some areas of Innovation. You wish that more smart people were working On. It’s particularly around climate and.

Charles

Um, I Really believe that another big piece of this is talent. Um, to be honest I Really think that we don’t have enough people um, working in the space right Now. It’s still a relatively small. Space. People are very collaborative but at the same time There’s simply not enough manpower to sort of you know change the world fast enough so I would I would say that you know having some some sort of school or some sort of you know training platform. Um, that can bring more people on board and have more people working in greener industries and together sort of mitigate the climate change Issue. So I think that is another big piece that’s sort of missing right now.

James McWalter

Yeah there’s ah this concept that ah a friend of mine has talked about which is he calls it like the next million where we have about a million ish people working directly on climate today. Um, you know across government and startups and all different kind of things and that’s great, but like who’s the next million. Right? And as we move kind of into more and more people working directly on these problems. They’re going to be less I guess kind of politically or emotionally or ideologically driven and they’re more going to be driven by just like you know the normal parts of life you know driven by their ability to have impact but also is this a good place to work is this a place that. I’m fulfilled in my job I’m working on cool problems and I think that the just because of the scale of yeah yeah, the different elements of climate um like more and more people are going to like look at that as something that they want to spend the next thirty years on and yeah it’s it’s super excited. But I agree like the velocity of people joining and working on these things is just not not fast enough. And I think a lot of that is to your point like there’s just not that many pathways that are very clearly articulated and so I know I know we have Sam Steyier who was talking about greenwork and like you know that’s one particular kind of pathway which I think is really promising and and it’s super exciting. Um, but we absolutely need like tons of those you know like if you are a like ah a great software engineer working at a fang company. You know if you are um, an accountant if you are you know a lawyer if you are whatever the skill set if you are you know, somebody who is an electrician whatever the kind of role that you’re working on today. There was absolutely work to be done directly working on climate and yeah and would love people to kind of yeah feel free to reach out to us. Um. You know email the podcast. Whatever it may be will always help to try to like direct people into working on those projects you know, connecting with the types of communities that have already arisen and definitely way more will also arise kind of working on these projects as well.

Charles

Great. Um, is there anything that I should have asked you but I did not.

James McWalter

Yeah that’s always the question I end with normal guests. But yeah, um I guess if anybody’s listening to this and they are a clean energy transportation or a green building developer operator investor. We’d love to hear from you. Um, as charles mentioned we are working on our Mvp. It should be out pretty soon. And we’re already starting to do kind of demos and setting up early trials for what we’re building and so yeah, if you are unhappy with the efficiency or profitability or success rate of your green infrastructure project development. Um, we want to talk to you and so yeah, feel will add our email address to the show notes of the podcast definitely feel feel.

James McWalter

Free to kind of reach out to us and the podcast is not going anywhere. Um, you know we we love having these kind of conversations I’m sure Charles will stop by from time to time as we have more things to report and we’ll continue to kind of talk to like great people who are working on climate from a climate tech kind of yeah point of view. And so Charles has been absolutely great. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Charles

Thank you James thanks for having me.

James McWalter

Thank you everyone.

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